Where is the Church, and when is the Apostasy?

  • Creator
    Topic
  • #7285
    IrenaeusFTW
    Participant

    It seems that lots of people here assume that the true Church was destroyed, overcome, or almost completely obscured from its very foundation. How does this square with Christ's promise that the gates of hell will not prevail? Matt 16:19

    How can Christ let the Church be overcome or reduced to obscurity? Christ says that a city on a hill cannot be hidden, and that a candle is not put under a basket. It would seem like He did just that if the Church was destroyed or totally impeded after the apostolic era. (Matt 5:13-16, Mark 4:21-23, Luke 8:16-17, Luke 11:33-37)

    Christ commanded His disciples to go and baptize all nations. Why would He command the Church to make disciples of and baptize all nations if He knew they were to be overcome in a generation or two? 

    Isn't it more likely that Christ's Church would spread over the whole earth and not be overcome? 

    In 2 Thessalonians Saint Paul speaks of an apostasy, but he speaks of it as a sign of Christ's imminent coming at the end of the world.

    Why should we assume that the apostasy took place almost 2,000 years ago, almost immediately after Christ sent the Church out to do His work? 

    If the Church was destroyed, overcome, or obscured for nearly two thousand years, how in the world can we hope to know the truth or restore it? 

    The birth of Church was accompanied by the Ressurection and Ascension of Christ and the coming of the Holy Sprit in tongues of fire. How can anyone claim to restore it without an equal miracle? 

  • #59672

    Sarah2013
    Participant

    Great post. Not sure the right way to phrase this, but isn't the church some kind of bride? If so, how can the bride be destroyed? I don't know if I quite understand the church being the bride either. I just need more knowledge in that area. I'm a bit confused about all of that. "How can anyone clain to restore it without an equal miracle?" I'd like to know the answer to that also. In addition, when you say "true church" please enlighten me a bit more of its meaning. All I recall is that John was the only one who didn't die a martyr death. I believe he died of old age on the aisle of patmo after he wrote Revelation. I think. I'm up for edification. Just don't convince me that I have to go to any church. Lol. 

    #59673

    IrenaeusFTW
    Participant

     Not sure the right way to phrase this, but isn't the church some kind of bride? If so, how can the bride be destroyed? I don't know if I quite understand the church being the bride either.

    Check out Ephesians 5:22-33

     In addition, when you say "true church" please enlighten me a bit more of its meaning. 

    Well, I suppose that is debateable. You know what I think, but there are two common interpretations of what that means.

    Protestants would generally understand the "true church" as a generic "all of the believers in Christ."

    Catholics and Orthodox would each claim that their Churches are the "one true Church," and that other Christians need to join them. I talked in another post why I believe "the Church" has to be a body with members who can claim authority descended directly from the apostles. This is the doctrine of "apostolic succession."

    Just don't convince me that I have to go to any church. Lol.

    lol, I understand why that isn't a very attractive idea, at first. But why reject the idea on principle? Obviously any Church making such a claim would need strong evidence.

    #59674

    IrenaeusFTW
    Participant

    My main point though, is that the idea Ahn neeeded to restore anything is unproven, and the fact that if anyone was to restore or refound anything, (be it a church or apostolic teaching) they need to have a serious miracle to be taken seriously. 

    They have none. 

    #59675

    Simon
    Participant

    IrenaeusFTW wrote:

    My main point though, is that the idea Ahn neeeded to restore anything is unproven, and the fact that if anyone was to restore or refound anything, (be it a church or apostolic teaching) they need to have a serious miracle to be taken seriously. 

    They have none. 

    A wicked generation asks for a miracle

    #59676

    IrenaeusFTW
    Participant

    "Simon wrote:

    IrenaeusFTW wrote:

    My main point though, is that the idea Ahn neeeded to restore anything is unproven, and the fact that if anyone was to restore or refound anything, (be it a church or apostolic teaching) they need to have a serious miracle to be taken seriously. 

    They have none. 

    A wicked generation asks for a miracle

    It is far more wicked to set up a false god. Christ proved His claims to divinity and authority.

    Whenever God has established a covenant with man there has been some revelation of His power. For the wicked generation that rejected Christ, no sign was given but the sign of Jonah, which is to say His death and Ressurection. (Matt 12:39) 

    "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead." -Luke 16:31

    He still gave a profound miracle for the faithful of that generation. 

    #59677

    Simon
    Participant

    maybe

    #59678

    Simon
    Participant

    but satan can perform miracles too so we should never look to them

    #59679

    IrenaeusFTW
    Participant

    Simon wrote:

    but satan can perform miracles too so we should never look to them

    True.  I guess then you have to ask if the teaching is true to judge the miracle. Which in some sense begs the original question. 

    Did the Church almost immediately apostasize after the apostles died? Is that possible or reasonable? I don't think it is.

    If it is reasonable, how? And who could claim to restore it? 

    #59680

    WMS brother
    Participant

    "Did the Church almost immediately apostasize after the apostles died? Is that possible or reasonable? I don't think it is."

    Actually thats exactly what happened. Tons of verses testify to exactly this, allow me to review them with you. Indeed, it was even begining to happen before the apostles even died.

    Galatians 1

    "6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel"

    Galatians 3

    "3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?"

    2 Thessalonians 2

    "7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work"

    1 Corinthians 4

    "18 Some of you have become arrogant"

    1 Corinthians 5

    "5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you"

    1 Corinthians 6

    "7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already."

    2 Corinthians 11

    "3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. … you put up with it easily enough."

    1 Timothy 1

    "6 Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about"

    2 Timothy 1

    "15 You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes. 16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus"

    2 Peter 2

    "2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct"

    3 John 1

    "9 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes … is … spreading malicious nonsense about us."

    Revelation 2

    "4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first."

    "14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. "

    "20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols."

    "4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes."

    "16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth."

    Such is why it is written:

    2 Corinthians 11

    "14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."

    The true deception of Satan is to appear as a church of Christ boasting about salvation and authority, even as supposed "servants of righteousness" lead everyone in it astray.

    It is not a pagan church persecuring Cristians, the beast masquerades as an angel of light.

    It is not a pagan emperor that Satan empowers, but a man who sets himself up in the temple of Christ and proclaims to have authority from God; that too is written.

    Thus let us follow the example of Paul, who kept sabbath. Let us not be divided. Indeed the sabbath is a commandment even directly from Christ. Let us be like theese women who have heard the instructions of Christ:

    Luke 23

    "55and the women also who have come with Him [Jesus] out of Galilee having followed after, beheld the tomb, and how his body was placed, 56and having turned back, they made ready spices and ointments, and on the sabbath, indeed, they rested, according to the command."

    #59681

    emil
    Participant

    You have a long list. I started to go through your list but stopped after the first couple as I am very familiar with those verses from Galatians. Paul is rebuking the Galatians for being deceived by those who were persuading them to follow the OT law for their salvation. Don't just take isolated verses and force your interpretation on them. Paul's meaning is clear when you read those first 5-6 chapters of Galatians in their entirety. Including your favorite chapter 4. The wmscog wants to force people to do exactly what Paul warned about.

    When you read the Gal 1 quote you have provided, keep reading to the first 5 verses of chapter 2 as wel. It explains who Paul says is corrupting the Gospel. Don't cheat people by providing half information and false interpretation of half information.

    Thanks also for providing us with 1 Cor 6:7

     

    1 Corinthians 6

    "7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already."

    Need we say more? It is clear who this and Gal applies to. I don't need to refute the others after showing this much.

    #59682

    emil
    Participant

    Deleted duplicate post

    #59683

    Simon
    Participant

    Galatians were reverting to paganism not turning to Judaism

    #59684

    emil
    Participant

    Sorry Simon, I don't agree. You must read Gal slowly and understand the context. Tell me what Gal 2:1-5 means? Who are the ones Paul is talking about? Who is Paul taking about in Gal 2:12? Forget the interpretations you have read and try to do it yourself.

    #59685

    Simon
    Participant

    Paul says it plain as day

    #59686

    Simon
    Participant

    Galatians 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces

    #59687

    WMS brother
    Participant

    Emil

    Well when you want to read all of it perhaps you will be able to discern the difference between people who claim the holy day is Sunday, and the faithful followers of jesus who kept the sabbath as commanded in Luke 23:55

    Perhaps by understanding that there are tons of examples of faithful church members falling away and praeching incorrect gospels, you will be persuaded by the sheer number of verses testifying to divisions in the Church of God.

    And while I thnak you for your point about lawsuits, that lawsuit was not between believers, nor did they accept in private to make peace. Rather than make peace, they continued to ruin those people's personal lives and defame our church.

    Some people may hide behind one verse, not understanding that there is more than one verse written in the bible. Yet God knows all and has taught us everything if we are patient enough to listen.

    Simon speaks some sense, and it is for his and other's benefit that I try to keep the truth alive here. So they can see everything revealed in full, and not just have circular arguments about meaningless controversies.

    That is enough from me for now, you all can disseminate the information and believe what you will.

    #59688

    emil
    Participant

    Simon wrote:

    Galatians 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces

     

    If you jump directly to chapter 4 then your interpretation may seem valid. But it must be seen in continuation with what has been said before in chapter 3. The whole discussion is about the people who were being made slaves to the law. You have not responded about Gal 2:12.

    #59689

    Simon
    Participant

    Galatians 2:12 isn’t about the galatians and is thus irrelevant

    #59690

    emil
    Participant

    WMS brother wrote:

    Emil

    Well when you want to read all of it perhaps you will be able to discern the difference between people who claim the holy day is Sunday, and the faithful followers of jesus who kept the sabbath as commanded in Luke 23:55

    Not sure if you are aware of what you are saying or it is a genuine misunderstanding. Your statement implies that Luke 23:55 commands the keeping of sabbath. That is absolutely untrue.

    Perhaps by understanding that there are tons of examples of faithful church members falling away and praeching incorrect gospels, you will be persuaded by the sheer number of verses testifying to divisions in the Church of God.

    Not sure what you mean but I do agree that there are too many divisions. That is not good. But as I said, most of us at least believe in Jesus being THE Christ.

    And while I thnak you for your point about lawsuits, that lawsuit was not between believers, nor did they accept in private to make peace. Rather than make peace, they continued to ruin those people's personal lives and defame our church.

    As far as I know, the lawsuits were among believers. Believers in something. They were mostly between believers of Jesus and those of Ahn.

    Some people may hide behind one verse, not understanding that there is more than one verse written in the bible. Yet God knows all and has taught us everything if we are patient enough to listen.

    I say the same about the wmscog. Taking isolated verses out of context. OK, this website is pretty fair in allowing opinions from both sides. Let us take one topic for each thread and start. Why don't you begin by telling us all about the fig tree prophecies using bible verses? Let us see how these look when looked at in the right context. Let us not just look at those individual verses.

    Simon speaks some sense, and it is for his and other's benefit that I try to keep the truth alive here. So they can see everything revealed in full, and not just have circular arguments about meaningless controversies.

    That is enough from me for now, you all can disseminate the information and believe what you will.

     

    I have the greatest respect for Simon and his desire to be absolutely fair.

    #59691

    Simon
    Participant

    Your objection to my verse reminded me of liar liar

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Dx32b5igLwA

    The verse says they used to be pagan and they are returning to their old ways i don’t see how where its placed changes anything

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