- Topic
Why is there very little to no activity in our forum recently? Scared to post for fear of reprisal? Fear of being sued? Intimidation at its finest!!!!!!!!! This is EXACTLY what WMS was trying to accomplish! And you have bowed down to them and allowed them to control OUR forum! I don't know about you, but I am NOT willing to let them control me! We have as much right to freedom of speech as they do! There are organizations out there who will fight for OUR right to freedom of speech as much as there are organizations who will fight for their right to freedom of speech! Here is an example of our group winning a very small battle, BUT A WIN!
http://www.alliancedefendingfreedom.org/News/PRDetail/9087
It's time to stand up and speak the truth WITHOUT fear! Who's with me?
I am definitely with you, Upset Mom. Freedom of speech is not something I am willing to give up. We can't stop talking about what is true and what is important to us due to intimidation tactics. We have to have courage to do the right thing, even though it may be out of our comfort zone. Living in fear just isn't living. As long as we are speaking the truth from the heart, we are in no danger of reprisal because there is nothing actionable in our stories. They are what we have lived. They are our truths, and we are allowed to speak them.
It sounds like the two of you are more interested in swimming upstream for as long as possible when there is a path alongside the river made for walking. Have loved ones in this group? Check your pride at the door and start acting like it. Have some empathy for their current point of view and figure out what it will take to rebuild your relationship with them. (hint: We have to have courage to do the right thing, even though it may be out of our comfort zone, version2.)
I'm sure someone inside the group has figured out who you are by now and the feedback to your loved ones is that you're not to be trusted. So, good luck with your continued posting if that's what you choose to do….
Nohandle: This isn't about pride. It isn't even about getting my loved one out of the wmscog at this point. I've walked beside the river so to speak for almost 6 years now, and to no avail. I know all about rebuilding the relationship, avoiding talk about the church, etc. I've done those things already. There isn't a lot you can tell me after all this time that I haven't already heard and done as a way to try to help.
This about helping other people, not just myself. This is about keeping this forum going, which is a lifeline to many people, and a great help to anyone dealing with loved ones in the wms. In my opinion, and I have talked to a lot of people with the same thoughts, there has been a concerted effort by the wms to stop people from exposing them. The latest involves blatant intimidation from posting here. I can't get my loved one out of the wms, he is going to have to realize the real lies he has been told on his own at this point. But I know that when I tell someone what their life will be like after joining, they don't join. It is about prevention; it's about being proactive. That is what this forum is about. But if we can't speak because we are afraid the truth will get us in trouble (which it will not) then we can't help others.
I have been threatened to stop posting here "Or else." What do you think that means? I don't threaten people in the wms. That wouldn't be right. But I feel that I should be able to discuss and disagree.
And then the question comes to mind, if you don't think talking on this forum is valuable, why are YOU doing it? And, it seems to me, discouraging others from talking here?
Thank you for wishing me good luck on posting here, if I chose to continue to do it. And I do choose to continue.
Our family has also worked hard the past few years with the ideas that Steve Hassan outlines so well in his book. You have to create this path somehow between your loved one in the cult and yourself/family so that they have a way out, eventually. However, like probably Mountain Mom also may have experienced, there is a limit to this type of strategy. It's called human nature …. emotion …. frustration …. anger. Plays both sides of the fence. WMSCOG and larger cults, like the Unification Church, Scientology, Jehovah Witness, etc, purposefully pull the recruited members from their old "family" to their "new" one. No matter how good you are at keeping a path open, the family member in the cult still views you as the "other side", or the "unbelieving side". That is so hard to accept, particularly when you remember watching them at birth, changing their diapers, or feeding them at your breast … in the above post, Mr. Nohandle talks of empathy …. I doubt Mr. Nohandle has a child or a former spouse stuck in a cult.
I'm with you UpsetMOm, and i'm sure no one here is afraid to keep posting or speaking their mind, it's just that at times we take sometime to relief our minds and think of more ways in which we can help our love ones.. I really don't care about the WMSCOG, YOU CAN INTIMIDATE or INFLICT YOUR FEAR TACTICS… I already know how you operate… you inject fear into people to get them to join your group, and now you inject fear into us by thinking we are afraid of being sued, but you know what no one here is afraid of you or even your fake gods,
What does Jesus teach to do when you get slapped??? just turn the other cheek …. but no you treat to sued people who just speak the truth or just speak their mind… you claim you follow the bible word by word but it seems like you never read 1 Corinthians 6:1-8 Avoiding Lawsuits with Christians…
"7 Even to have such lawsuits with one another is a defeat for you. Why not just accept the injustice and leave it at that? Why not let yourselves be cheated?8 Instead, you yourselves are the ones who do wrong and cheat even your fellow believers"
So you can sued me or anyone in here all you want.. that shows how fake of a church you are, You've been around for about 50 years and I never knew about you your existance until my love one fall in your trap. Probably about 80% of the world don't even know your cult exist, because the other 20% that knows it's because they are either members or family of the members… but isn't it funny that most of the world don't even know that Christ already had his second coming, and that he is gone once again… jeezz how did Christ came to earth once again and no one ever knew??? because it was only after Ahn Sahng-hong died that you actually claimed him to be God, There is not records that not even once he witness to any of his fellow follower and claimed to be the messiah in another body. How foolish can people be to believe this lie..
I pray for my love one and other people's love ones to finally see the truth.. and to see how much all the Moms, Dads, Sisters, Brothers, and closest family members suffer everyday to see them lost in this doctrine maze they are trapped in…. Jesus Christ already did the biggest sacrifice of all by giving his life so you we can have the freedom of life and the love of God, Don't be enslaved once again by following rules and teleologies that will lead you to destruction!
@Jesus-will-set-u-free: Thank you for your post. I know how it is sometimes. I have had to get away from the forum to relieve my mind and just focus on something else for a while too, at times. I just wanted to make sure people see through (what I perceive as ) intimidation attempts by the wms to get people to stop exposing them.
Oh, and another thing. Nohandle's last paragraph could also be seen as some kind of veiled intimidation. He/she implies that the wmscog knows who everyone is. They don't. They have figured out a couple people, but if you have been careful with your posts, you are most likely still anonymous. Nohandle is right about one thing for sure: If they do figure out who you are they will use it to distance you from your loved one in the group. But they don't know who most are, even when they try hard to figure it out.
It doesn't matter anyway because if you have ever communicated a criticism of the church to your loved one, they are already telling your loved one not to trust you, even if you have never posted here at all.
What @nohandle described is a very one-sided relationship. He doesn't seem like someone who would sacrifice anything for his loved ones. Which brings me to my next point:
We don't have to post all the time here to expose the WMS, they are doing a pretty good job on their own and are making our case for us.
Being active in a forum isn't the only way to fight the evil in this world. On the contrary, the lack of activity here can mean that people are taking the fight "to the streets", so to speak and exploring other ways to deal with undue influence. Don't lose your hope, Upset Mom.
We can't always see the immediate results of what we do in this battle and it can be demotivating at times. But what we can do is keep trying and remember that God has our back, unlike the deceitful koreans, who only have a corpse and an overweight elderly lady to show for.
So even if you were the last line of defence, you needn't worry. Cause despite all the resources and effort the WMSCOG put in their infernal endeavours, there is One greater than all of them and all their forces combined.
Smurf wrote:
What @nohandle described is a very one-sided relationship. He doesn't seem like someone who would sacrifice anything for his loved ones. Which brings me to my next point:
We don't have to post all the time here to expose the WMS, they are doing a pretty good job on their own and are making our case for us.
Being active in a forum isn't the only way to fight the evil in this world. On the contrary, the lack of activity here can mean that people are taking the fight "to the streets", so to speak and exploring other ways to deal with undue influence. Don't lose your hope, Upset Mom.
We can't always see the immediate results of what we do in this battle and it can be demotivating at times. But what we can do is keep trying and remember that God has our back, unlike the deceitful koreans, who only have a corpse and an overweight elderly lady to show for.
So even if you were the last line of defence, you needn't worry. Cause despite all the resources and effort the WMSCOG put in their infernal endeavours, there is One greater than all of them and all their forces combined.
I was going to cut and paste a few things that Smurf said but when I re read it I realized I loved every word he said so I just copied the whole thing. You see Upset Mom, everyone is here, no one has gone anywhere AND no one is going anywhere. Obviously everyone comes to this site everyday or 2 just to check in. We are not afraid of the big bad wolf or anyone else for that matter.
One thing we know for sure is, "History repeats itself!" and as we watch the wms follow the playbook of larger cults such as unification church/moonies, scientology and JW's who have become household names, unmasked as cults for all to see so too shall the wms by their own sword, so to speak.
Sally's theory of probability….Nohandle + Time = Victor (I'm still here for you Victor)
I have gone no where….. In fact, I have reached through to another person I recriuted years ago, and now he is out!!! That's 3 so far, of the many that I brought to the WMS…. and if that's all I can do, then it would still have been a battle well fought and time well spent. And, no where near to being like a person swimming up stream! So in short, we are still out here and we are still spreading the truth about this organization so that no one else will have to go through what we went through.
Sally's theory of probability….Nohandle + Time = Victor (I'm still here for you Victor)….. oh, and (not so) Neutral.
Good to hear from all of you on this thread. I, too, loved Smurf's comments. And, of course, I had my suspicions about Nohandle. Sometimes I guess I need to hear some success stories. I know they are out there.
Scenario:
Your loved one at some point up and asks you if you post on here, your response is?
My response would be,"Please read everything I have posted, instead of just the edited exerpts the wms people have handed to you to use as a means to cause you to separate from me. You will see my concern and love for you, my frustration with the deception, and the real pain and anguish your involvement with them has caused your family. And then read all the rest of evidence that this site shows. Remember that we have all been fooled before in our lives, and we did not know we were being deceived at the time. That is the very essence of deception. Consider that your time in the wms may have been one of those times. I love you, your Dad and siblings love you, and we are here. Come back to your family."
And then I guess I would not hold my breath for a response. He would have to listen to his heart, and he doesn't seem able. I hope some day he is. He studied his way into this mess, and I hope some day he studies his way out. I have done all I can. Now I want to help other people so that we can prevent other mothers from going through the hell of watching what happens to their family after a loved one becomes ensnared by the wmscog.
Ugh.
You will lose him at "please read".
Newsflash: they're one step ahead of you.
This will be your fault, not theirs: "the real pain and anguish your involvement with them has caused your family".
I will edit this for you. Here it is:
"I love you, your Dad and siblings love you."
Is it a problem when people work too long of hours at work? When they buy into living in debt for most or all of their lives and buy more and more useless stuff? When mainstream people marry for the wrong reasons or the "wrong" person or the wrong sex? When they idolize rock stars or people in Hollywood? When political candidates put forth anecdotes without any substantive claim based upon research? Most or all of us on this planet go about most or all of our business taking the world and the people in it for granted. What makes that so different than this group?
Taking a look from another's perspective I could see where it would be pretty easy to say, "see, mom wants to tell me what to do and I'm a grown man. She just wants to pick my stuff apart when the rest of the world is "deceived" all the time. I've found the truth". Now you have a right-fighter on your hands. Good luck with that. People don't find or research the truth, they feel it. It is then true. "Consider that your time in the wms may have been one of those times" = mom was right to a right-fighter. Stop thinking with an analytical/logical mindset. I doubt seriously that you have done all you can to prove you are unbiased towards this group and perhaps that is what your son wants, which may then open the door to him spending some time with you. Time which should be spent enjoying with him and absolutely without church talk or challenge whatsoever.
Why exactly is this experience "hell", as you put it? Fascist governments still exist in this day and age and I, personally, would reserve that title for people living under those regimes. Even those people normalize what happens in their culture as a mechanism to make sense of their world. They have nothing to compare to, and the regime seeks to maintain its control by keeping people inside. The reason is, once people have a choice then…well, they have a choice. If there is a divide that keeps you separated from your son then perhaps that is partially you to take responsibility for? My advice is to become a neighboring country that doesn't criticize, is safe to visit, and let the immigration happen when it happens. Or keep reinforcing your animosity towards the group. Your choice. This is just a differing point of view.
Wow Nohandle! That was an awful long post for a guy who says posting here isn't a good idea. Lol! Anyway, like I said, I am not trying to convince my son to leave at this time, and I have tried the "no church talk and no challenge" route for years. I just wanted to do exactly as you said, have a good visit and enjoy time with him when I could with no mention of the church.
It was not me but my son who kept trying to challenge and bring up the church when I had no intention of talking about it. But I am quite sure that they (wms) had him set up to do so. They wanted him to argue with me, I am quite sure. They actually kept bringing up a "transgression" they accused me of and harrassing hinm about it untill my son finally told them, "I don't want to hear about it again." They pester him about everything that has to do with me or taking time for family. No wonder he says he is miserable. He is very conflicted. So I just left it at "I love you, and I have always wanted you to be happy." That was my simple and last communication with him.
@nohandle – I appreciate that you are trying to help us reach our loved ones in this cult, but you are giving advice without knowing the full story of each person. Example: "I doubt seriously that you have done all you can to prove you are unbiased towards this group and perhaps that is what your son wants, which may then open the door to him spending time with you." By saying "I doubt seriously" shows you do not know her story. You are making assumptions. Your "advice" is not based on facts – just assumptions.I feel this website saved my life when I lost my loved one to this cult! If it wasn't for Mountain Mom and many others, I don't know what would have happened to me. So you may find it useless, but that is again – your opinion and your experience. Not the case with many others here.
Also, your comment about having "empathy" for their point of view – what does that mean? Empathy means you feel the other person's pain. How do I empathize with someone in a cult who is controlled by their Korean leaders when I have never been in that situation? I do feel sorry for them because they are being controlled and have no free will, but I can't empathize with them. I empathize with other parents who have lost their child to this horrible cult because I have walked in their shoes.
And last – you asked the question – if my child asks if I post here, what would I say? I would say that I have read over 30 books on cults, mind control, and influence. I have learned about Scientology, Children of God, the Unification Church, the Mormons, the Jehovah Wittnesses, Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Seventh Day Adventist, Heaven's Gate, etc., etc., I have watched hundreds of videos and visited hundreds of websites, including this one. And I am so happy that I have the freedom to read and research whatever I want. Then I would ask my loved one if they have been discouraged from visiting this website. (And I am assuming that the answer would be that they aren't discouraged – they choose not to read this). Which in the end is the perfect mind control and manipulation – getting someone to do EXACTLY what you want them to do and them THINKING it is their choice.
So I will continue to post and visit this site. Because I can freely do that without guilt or fear. Santa Claus isn't watching me and neither is the mother.
What is truth wrote:
I have gone no where….. In fact, I have reached through to another person I recriuted years ago, and now he is out!!! That's 3 so far, of the many that I brought to the WMS…. and if that's all I can do, then it would still have been a battle well fought and time well spent. And, no where near to being like a person swimming up stream! So in short, we are still out here and we are still spreading the truth about this organization so that no one else will have to go through what we went through.
Sally's theory of probability….Nohandle + Time = Victor (I'm still here for you Victor)….. oh, and (not so) Neutral.
Good call What is truth, def not Victor, soooo Chad.
Nohandle, please respond from your heart, please tell these parents why your god doesn't want their children to be part of their lives.
Read carefully what they say and tell us why your god feels these parents are so evil that their children must disconnect from them as per your gods will. Be honest with us and yourself and please don't say, no one is telling them to disconnect because you know that's BS.
Yes groups like this stunt members' abilities to perform objective research. It is easy to criticize these groups. However, how many people in the world critically examine their social environment? Like always, we can point out the problems in other people's life choices but conveniently ignore our own, and justify it away because some group is labeled this or that or a "cult".
Btw, some of these posts come across as clinging to your ideologies in an eerily similar manner to members still in their groups. Just because the obvious Lifton themes are recognizable for them doesn't mean that the absence thereof for us means that we have the free will that we think we have.
The main point is, under what conditions would someone want to step out of what they (feel they know) is the Truth?
@Nohandle: I see what you are saying. However, most people who left realized on their own that they were being lied to. Some got out with interventions. Some just simply stopped believing and walked out after five or six years. Others have stayed in for a very long time before they were fed up, financially ruined, and had abandoned some really great relationships. Many parents I know are trying as hard as they can just to keep relationships going, and are not having the "church" discussions. We do what we can. Still, the church leaders will try to separate them if they feel the parents or other loved ones are making headway of any kind. The only family members they will put up with are those who are either members, or do not care if their loved one is wasting their life in a cult.
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