Were We Angels That Were Kicked Out Of Heaven?

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  • #6755
    Hailey Stevens
    Participant

    Part 6 to this topic was just posted last week and I wanted to just summarize the overall conclusion on this argument. So the WMSCOG claims that all humans on earth were angels before that sinned against God and therefore were kicked out and sent to heaven to be born as humans. In the articles, we have examined a number of Bible verses that the WMSCOG attempt to use to substantiate their claim. So after reading these articles and understanding how the WMSCOG twists the verses to come to their conclusion, I wonder how any WMSCOG member can remain in the group. I mean their argument only makes sense if you take the verses out of context.

    You have to ignore that the verses in Proverbs are the personification of wisdom.

    You have to ignore that the verses in Isaiah point to the second coming of Jesus in Revelation to come to the conclusion that “clouds mean flesh”.

    You have to ignore the parallels drawn between Lucifer and the King of Tyre in Ezekiel.

    You have to ignore that the Bible says that the angels that sinned in heaven were sent to hell. 2 Peter 2:4

    You have to ignore that Abraham and his family left an actual country when you read the verses in Hebrews.

    You have to ignore that the apostle Paul is referring to spiritual death being the wages of sin in Romans.

    So how is it that WMSCOG members don’t realize that you can only come to the WMSCOG’s conclusion that we were angels that were kicked out of heaven if you ignore the context in ALL of the above references. It just doesn’t add up.

  • #42286

    WMS brother
    Participant

    Smurf

    But let us return to the example in question.

    Is there any context which exists in that chapter, to suggest that The Lord is addressing anyone else except the King of Tyre personally?

    There is not. 100% of the message concerned that mortal man king of Tyre, and in the context of this message, which was a literal warning about babylonian armies.

    Questioninginla

    Other verses can be addressed in their proper context. Lets not shift the goalposts.

    Your criticism of our other doctrines does not erase the fact that Goid was delivering a warning about the destruction of Tyre and its King, which is followed by an exposition of all their sins.

    We know this message is literal, because he's talking about literal babylonian armies, which literally did exactly as God said.

    Further that logic ignores that God began a new dialogue with Ezekiel several times, each repeating the story of why God doesn't like Tyre or its king. There is no verse saying "they are like this other thing" there is no verse saying "this reminds me of that other time", there is absolutely zero context to believe that this is anything other than a continuation of this very literal message.

    #42287

    Smurf
    Participant

    WMS brother wrote:

    Smurf

    I'm not here to argue about what the Nephilim truly mean, only that a precedent is set that angels can fall to earth in a very physical form.

    Further, your logic highlights the fact that Job happened after the Nephilim. Solomon happened after the Nephilim, Ezekiel happened after the Nephilim, et cetera for all theese examples

    Yes, I agree. But which part of prepared for the devil and his angels do you not get? Hell is their destiny. So we can't be fallen ones. Why would God prepare such a place for us and a the same time instruct us to be fruitful and multipy? Why would he want to multilpy evil??

    #42288

    WMS brother
    Participant

    Smurf

    The wages of sin are death.

    Jesus came to seek and to save the lost.

    We must be forgiven of some kind of greivous sin against God, in order to be redeemed and return to heaven where our spirit did dwell before being alive on this earth.

    Rather the fate of the fallen angels makes it even more clear the importance of Jesus salvation and the reason why any of us even exist here on earth in the first place.

    #42289

    Smurf
    Participant

    WMS brother wrote:

    Smurf

    But let us return to the example in question.

    Is there any context which exists in that chapter, to suggest that The Lord is addressing anyone else except the King of Tyre personally?

    There is not. 100% of the message concerned that mortal man king of Tyre, and in the context of this message, which was a literal warning about babylonian armies.

    You can't be serious! Who is God speaking about in Ez. 28 11-19??? The anointed cherub is only one…

    #42290

    WMS brother
    Participant

    Smurf

     

    ezekiel 28

    11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “‘You [king of Tyre] were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You [king of Tyre] were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you [king of Tyre]: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. Your [king of Tyre] settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you [king of Tyre] were created they were prepared. 14 You [king of Tyre] were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you [king of Tyre].

    Again I repeat myself, the message BEGAN with the King of Tyre "Take up a lament concerning the King of Tyre"

    And its ENDS with the King of Tyre

    And every step along the way it continues to be about the King of Tyre

    King of Tyre, King of Tyre, King of Tyre!

    That is the subject of the message. Can you show me where God is adressing any other person?

    #42291

    Smurf
    Participant

    Satan. As The King of Tyre.

    So in essence Satan as a man. You've heard about that haven't you?

    #42292

    WMS brother
    Participant

    Smurf

    Where are you getting the name SATAN from anywhere?

    You are sayign that the King of Tyre has to be Satan, because you believe Satan is the only angel thrown down from heaven, so since you believe that Satan is the only angel cast out from the fiery stones, that is your evidence that God is talking about Satan and not the King of Tyre? Thus the King of Tyre's example is proof about Satan getting cast out of heaven…

    That is called circular logic. This post is evidence that someone other than Satan is an angel cast down to the earth. You cannot, in the absense of Satan's name (the devil, the evil one, the great serpent, et cetera) then grant HIM credit for belonging to this verse.

    Further, even using your own logic that is wrong, because  there are other guardian cherubs and angels besides Satan.

    You going in circles, because thats the only way you can distract from the fact that God was talking to the King of Tyre and had a message which was personally for him.

    #42293

    Questioninginla
    Participant

    WMSB must also deny all the other metaphors in the Bible now, based upon his logic that everything has to be penciled in and be nice and clear for him.  Talk about moving the goal posts…more like cementing in the first down markers!  Go out and play now children!  And don't forget to tell them not to move the goal posts on you!

    Here's some free advice.  Stop being a simpleton and start using the upper parts of your brain.

    This is the process of truth setting you free.  Start thinking.  My first paragraph here is legitimate.  You actually would have to deny any and all metaphors in the Bible, and this is based upon your very own arguments given in this thread.  We do realize how important this pillar is to you, because without it the cards start to fall.  People love you and they are there for you.  The pain of falling pillars is relieved by the love of family members eagerly waiting to hold you in their arms.

    #42294

    WMS brother
    Participant

    Questioninginla

    That is beyond ridiculous.

    There exist some things in the bible that are metaphors, they contain phrases such as "like this" and "such as this they will be".

    There exist some things in the bible which are prophecies, they contain phrases such as "there will be a son born to us" or "in the last days".

    There exist some things in the bible which are literal, they contain phrases such as "King Nebudchadsnezzer of babylon actually exists in reality and is coming to kill you. He is coming to kill you because I am mad at you. Now listen to me describe why I am mad at you".

    Again and again this discussion continues without any clear or rational thought begin given to the verses in ezekiel. You say "they havge to be a metaphor, because my opinions are evidence!" some say "It has to be talking about satan, because I refuse to believe God is speaking to King Tyre, my opinion is evidence!"

    I am reading it straight, with no interpretations, and no suggestions of how it should be read. The verses speak for themselves. God says this message concerns the King of Tyre. To say it suggests any other subject is directly ignoring the word of God.

    I hope this example is made blatantly clear for anyone who is doubting the information posed by this forum, for clearly there are verses which they are taking out of context.

    I end my argument there, for its clear no matter how many times I post you still will not adress the main topic.

    It remains that there are illigitimate doctrines you cannot defend, from a blood-stained church you cannot defend, from a nation which may or may not be the beast; but you don't even know that.

    I defend my faith easily "as paul does, so do I," and there are precedents which imply what I believe, even if you do not fully accept it.

    Yet some people here say "as murderers have done, so do we" and they villify anyone who dares to enjoy their freedom of religion.

    I have said enough here and I'm leaving for now.

    #42295

    emil
    Participant

    WMS brother – The entire debate about the King of Tyre has lost relevance for your side of the argument. Even if, for argument's sake, I accept your view that he is satan, your reference to the nephilim (thanks to you for that) shows that most humans at least were not fallen angels. Goodbye King of Tyre. RIP.

    #42296

    genny
    Participant

    I feel I must step in with an English literature and composition lesson.

    WMS brother wrote:

     

    There exist some things in the bible that are metaphors, they contain phrases such as "like this" and "such as this they will be".

    WMS Brother, you have forgotten about similes.  Remember the difference between similes and metaphors.  Similes compare two different things using "like" or "as," such as "My feet were as cold as ice."  Metaphors compare two different things by stating that one is the other, without "like" or "as," such as "My feet were ice cubes."

    The verses do not have to use words such as "like this" to show a metaphor.  That is a key feature about metaphors.

    #42297

    WMS brother
    Participant

    genny

    I didn't neglect them. I said; "they contain phrases such as" which includes but is not limited to, "like this" "such as" et cetera.

    I'd rather not argue about arguing though, that level of nit picking does not promote actually reading those verses from Ezekiel.

    It remains that we have very clear reason to believe the King of Tyre is a mortal man, under no pretext of possession, and God addresses him personally as an angel kicked out of heaven.

    When common ground has been reached, perhaps I'll reply again.

    #42298

    emil
    Participant

    WMS brother wrote:

    genny

    I didn't neglect them. I said; "they contain phrases such as" which includes but is not limited to, "like this" "such as" et cetera.

    I'd rather not argue about arguing though, that level of nit picking does not promote actually reading those verses from Ezekiel.

    It remains that we have very clear reason to believe the King of Tyre is a mortal man, under no pretext of possession, and God addresses him personally as an angel kicked out of heaven.

    When common ground has been reached, perhaps I'll reply again.

     

    We have reached one common ground. I said I hypothetically accepted this view of the King of Tyre. That still leaves us with the nephilim proof which you yourself mentioned. It is clear that the kicked out angels are in a minority. Any comments?

    #42299

    WMS brother
    Participant

    There is no teaching about eternal life or salvation through the nephilim. It is enough that they existed.

    Jesus says he came to seek and save the lost. So when did we become lost? Where did Jesus lose us from?

    Why do innocent people have to die? What sin did they commit?

    Some say sin came into the world through Adam and Eve, and it is inherited. If that were true, than anyone not recorded in geneology would not possess that original sin. Likewise not all people on the earth are Jews, we can both agree there are Gentile people without geneology.

    So then why do Gentile newborn babies die? If the sin we inherit is not from Adam, then where does it come from? Exactly what is it that we did that was so bad that we need Jesus forgiveness to enter heaven?

    This is the question that King Tyre’s example answers, and with that knowledge we can begin to understand other verses in their correct context.

    Which is the key to understanding the difference between the literal events in Genesis and the metaphorical or prophetical ones.

    But even if we disagree here, identifying the customs of the Apostles remains more important.

    For different gospel is different gospel. False prophets too claim to love christ, that alone does not make a true church, for its easy to say you love Jesus with words. Its far more difficult to get rid of worldly arrogance and pursue the truth.

    #42300

    Simon
    Participant

    What sin do giraffes comit?

    #42301

    emil
    Participant

    WMS brother wrote:

    There is no teaching about eternal life or salvation through the nephilim. It is enough that they existed.

    Whose teaching is absent about nephilim? You mentioned the King of Tyre. Whose teaching is that? You mentioned the nephilim. You take one example from scripture to claim that the King of Tyre was an angel who had fallen. I said even if we do agree, it does not make all of us fallen angels. You mentioned nephilim in Genesis. This same passage confirms that there were angels and normal humans at the same time. This refutes the claim that we are all fallen angels. Don't you understand what I'm saying? I don't care whether your wmscog has a teaching or not. See what the bible is saying through the same verses you provided.

    Jesus says he came to seek and save the lost. So when did we become lost? Where did Jesus lose us from?

    Lost has more than one meaning. You think this means Lost – opposite of found. He did not come to find those who were lost in that manner but he came to restore the inheritance to those who had lost it. Humans lost their inheritance when Adam and Eve sinned.

    If you mean we were lost in your manner and Jesus came to find us then that contradicts the bible that God drove Adam and Eve out of heaven. We would be lost in that manner if we disappeared from God's sight unwittingly. However the fallen angels were thrown out from heaven. God knew where they were.

    Why do innocent people have to die? What sin did they commit?

    Luke 13:1-5 – Jesus gives the answer. Suffering on earth and physical death have nothing to do with sin. See also the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

    Some say sin came into the world through Adam and Eve, and it is inherited. 

    Some do not say it. The bible says it.

     

    If that were true, than anyone not recorded in geneology would not possess that original sin. Likewise not all people on the earth are Jews, we can both agree there are Gentile people without geneology.

    So then why do Gentile newborn babies die? If the sin we inherit is not from Adam, then where does it come from? Exactly what is it that we did that was so bad that we need Jesus forgiveness to enter heaven?

    There are multiple issues with this reasoning.

    1. You imply that Gentiles are not from Adam and Eve. Not correct. Technically the Jews are descendants of Jacob. There were several generations before Jacob.

    2. You need to figure out the meaning of the word genealogy. It does not mean that non-Jews do not have genealogy. Your corrupt understanding seems to flow from the wmscog Melchizedek teaching.

    3. We inherited sinful nature from Adam and Eve. Babies do not die because they sinned but because sinful nature we inherited caused us to inherit death as well. As already explained, how early we die is completely unrelated to what sins we committed.

    This is the question that King Tyre's example answers, and with that knowledge we can begin to understand other verses in their correct context.

    Which is the key to understanding the difference between the literal events in Genesis and the metaphorical or prophetical ones.

    I don't see how it is the key.

    But even if we disagree here, identifying the customs of the Apostles remains more important.

    And how would you identify these customs?

    For different gospel is different gospel. False prophets too claim to love christ, that alone does not make a true church, for its easy to say you love Jesus with words. Its far more difficult to get rid of worldly arrogance and pursue the truth.

    Can I see a quote for that statement that I have marked?

    The rest of what you have written are just meaningless words that anyone can use. You guys cannot even say you love Jesus because the one you love is someone else altogether.

    #42302

    Stained
    Participant

    Don't give me none of that do goody good BULLSHIT !

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSwsPQdQ8TI 

    Money, so they say, is the Root of all Evil today.  

    #42303

    emil
    Participant

    Simon wrote:

    What sin do giraffes comit?

    LOL. Super brilliant. Why didn't I think of that?

    #42304

    Questioninginla
    Participant

    WMS Brother, you have forgotten about similes.  Remember the difference between similes and metaphors.  Similes compare two different things using "like" or "as," such as "My feet were as cold as ice."  Metaphors compare two different things by stating that one is the other, without "like" or "as," such as "My feet were ice cubes."

    The verses do not have to use words such as "like this" to show a metaphor.  That is a key feature about metaphors.

    Exactly.

    Otherwise, in Ezekiel 23:24 there really are chariots, wagons, and throngs of people taking up positions on all sides.  Seems a bit overkill, doesn't it?  Oh yeah, todays lesson:  "metaphor".

    WMS brother wrote:

    I hope this example is made blatantly clear for anyone who is doubting the information posed by this forum, for clearly there are verses which they are taking out of context.

    Are there ANY verses your group gets wrong?

    Proverbs says at least 3 times to "seek many counselors".  Yet, my experience has been that ANY outside interpretation is wrong.  If God had meant "seek many counselors in a homogeneous environment", I'm quite certain that He would have stressed that alternative version in the Holy Book.

    For a follower of Christ, you sure seem like you ignore Matthew 24:26.  What does this verse mean to you?

    WMS brother wrote:

    I defend my faith easily "as paul does, so do I,"

    It is wonderful to see an admirer of Paul.

    Are you familiar with 2 Timothy 2:15?  What does this verse mean to you?

    #42305

    Questioninginla
    Participant

    Correction:

    Otherwise, in Ezekiel there really are chariots, wagons, and throngs of people taking up positions on all sides. Seems a bit overkill for 1 prostitute, doesn't it? Oh yeah, todays lesson: "metaphor".

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