Were We Angels That Were Kicked Out Of Heaven?

  • Creator
    Topic
  • #6755
    Hailey Stevens
    Participant

    Part 6 to this topic was just posted last week and I wanted to just summarize the overall conclusion on this argument. So the WMSCOG claims that all humans on earth were angels before that sinned against God and therefore were kicked out and sent to heaven to be born as humans. In the articles, we have examined a number of Bible verses that the WMSCOG attempt to use to substantiate their claim. So after reading these articles and understanding how the WMSCOG twists the verses to come to their conclusion, I wonder how any WMSCOG member can remain in the group. I mean their argument only makes sense if you take the verses out of context.

    You have to ignore that the verses in Proverbs are the personification of wisdom.

    You have to ignore that the verses in Isaiah point to the second coming of Jesus in Revelation to come to the conclusion that “clouds mean flesh”.

    You have to ignore the parallels drawn between Lucifer and the King of Tyre in Ezekiel.

    You have to ignore that the Bible says that the angels that sinned in heaven were sent to hell. 2 Peter 2:4

    You have to ignore that Abraham and his family left an actual country when you read the verses in Hebrews.

    You have to ignore that the apostle Paul is referring to spiritual death being the wages of sin in Romans.

    So how is it that WMSCOG members don’t realize that you can only come to the WMSCOG’s conclusion that we were angels that were kicked out of heaven if you ignore the context in ALL of the above references. It just doesn’t add up.

  • #42266

    Sarah2013
    Participant

    The human spirit and angels are not the same. 

    #42267

    WMS brother
    Participant

    Then to make sure did not miss anything in context, let us read from the beginning of this current iteration of "the word of the Lord" up until the verse of being thrown to the earth, without skipping anything in between.

    Let us see who is the "you" God is talking about. I shall follow along [in brackets] and bold letters identifying the subject every step of the way.

    ezekiel 28

    11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre [king of Tyre] and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “‘You [king of Tyre] were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You [king of Tyre] were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you [king of Tyre]: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. Your [king of Tyre] settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you [king of Tyre] were created they were prepared. 14 You [king of Tyre] were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you [king of Tyre]. You [king of Tyre] were on the holy mount of God; you [king of Tyre] walked among the fiery stones. 15 You [king of Tyre] were blameless in your [king of Tyre] ways from the day you [king of Tyre] were created till wickedness was found in you [king of Tyre]. 16 Through your [king of Tyre] widespread trade you [king of Tyre] were filled with violence, and you [king of Tyre] sinned. So I drove you [king of Tyre] in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you [king of Tyre], guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your [king of Tyre] heart became proud on account of your [king of Tyre] beauty, and you corrupted your [king of Tyre] wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you [king of Tyre] to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.

    At no point in this entire discussion does the subject change to Satan, it was about the King of Tyre to begin with, and it ends with the King of Tyre, a mortal man. Here we can clearly see that from beginning to end the subject remains the same.

    Nowhere does God say he is comparing Tyre to someone else, he is specifically angry at Tyre personally, that is the singular subject of this message.

    Understanding this, it is clear that the other verses are not figurative, but in fact literal.

    emil

    The WMS preaches that mankind existed on earth and were considered beasts in the eyes of God throughout evolution. Then after their rise of civilizations and ancient deeds recorded by archaology God gave mankind his wisdom and light 6,000 years ago, then a certain number of angels fell. At that point not all humans were recieved by God or possessed angelic souls. Thus it is written that Some are Nephilim "The Fallen Ones" and some are human.

    It is now at this point that we can clearly see that all of us have souls, and there is no more mention of a different people.

    #42268

    Stained
    Participant

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    So why we here? Why is this world so horrible? Why are so many people suffering in most parts of the world?

    Moo La doe dae.

    #42269

    Questioninginla
    Participant

    @WMS Brother I don't like debating scripture, but anyway…

    If the King of Tyre had literally been among the fiery stones – used to "prove" the hypothesis that we were angels according to the doctrine, then:

    Ezekiel 28:19 "you have come to a horrible end and will be no more."

    If he was literally to be no more, (remaining consistent with your insistence upon being literal and specific to the king of Tyre) then WHY IS HE EVEN IN THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL IF HE IS NO MORE WHEN AMONG THE FIERY STONES?

    Your logic is used here in that each verse specifically refers to the king.  So he was no more in the time before time, then literally he has no ability to even BECOME the king of Tyre in the first place.

    Change a word, change thinking, change reality….control your reality, control you.

    Proverbs:  seek many counselors.

    NOT seek many homogeneous counselors.

    #42270

    genny
    Participant

    WMS Brother, your verses Eze. 28:11-17 are not about an earthly King of Tyre, but about Satan.  Read Daniel chapter 10 to see how other angels are referred to.

    Daniel 10:12-14

    Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them.  But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.  Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.

    and Daniel 10:20-21

    So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

    #42271

    genny
    Participant

    Or if you still want to insist that it must be an earthly King of Tyre, you can view these verses as metaphors or analogies, as this commentator shows:

    http://www.studylight.org/com/bnb/view.cgi?bk=eze&ch=28&vs=11#11

    #42272

    emil
    Participant

    WMS brother wrote:

    Then to make sure did not miss anything in context, let us read from the beginning of this current iteration of "the word of the Lord" up until the verse of being thrown to the earth, without skipping anything in between.

    Let us see who is the "you" God is talking about. I shall follow along [in brackets] and bold letters identifying the subject every step of the way.

    ezekiel 28

    11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre [king of Tyre] and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “‘You [king of Tyre] were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You [king of Tyre] were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you [king of Tyre]: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl. Your [king of Tyre] settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you [king of Tyre] were created they were prepared. 14 You [king of Tyre] were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you [king of Tyre]. You [king of Tyre] were on the holy mount of God; you [king of Tyre] walked among the fiery stones. 15 You [king of Tyre] were blameless in your [king of Tyre] ways from the day you [king of Tyre] were created till wickedness was found in you [king of Tyre]. 16 Through your [king of Tyre] widespread trade you [king of Tyre] were filled with violence, and you [king of Tyre] sinned. So I drove you [king of Tyre] in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you [king of Tyre], guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your [king of Tyre] heart became proud on account of your [king of Tyre] beauty, and you corrupted your [king of Tyre] wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you [king of Tyre] to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.

    At no point in this entire discussion does the subject change to Satan, it was about the King of Tyre to begin with, and it ends with the King of Tyre, a mortal man. Here we can clearly see that from beginning to end the subject remains the same.

    Nowhere does God say he is comparing Tyre to someone else, he is specifically angry at Tyre personally, that is the singular subject of this message.

    Understanding this, it is clear that the other verses are not figurative, but in fact literal.

    emil

    The WMS preaches that mankind existed on earth and were considered beasts in the eyes of God throughout evolution. Then after their rise of civilizations and ancient deeds recorded by archaology God gave mankind his wisdom and light 6,000 years ago, then a certain number of angels fell. At that point not all humans were recieved by God or possessed angelic souls. Thus it is written that Some are Nephilim "The Fallen Ones" and some are human.

    It is now at this point that we can clearly see that all of us have souls, and there is no more mention of a different people.

    Regarding Ezekiel, why do we only start from verse 11 and not from the start of the chapter? As I mentioned earlier, the start of the chapter is about the King of Tyre, the mortal man. Not and angel. Several verses describe him as mortal. In the second part his behaviour is compared to Satan (probably possessed by satan) and that is why it says "You". You want to take it lierally, it is your choice. But that is anyway irrelevant in light of what you say next.

    I understand that now you are claiming that all of us are not fallen angels. Only a few are. Is that true? I was told by other wmscog members that we are all fallen angels.

    #42273

    WMS brother
    Participant

    >from the start of the chapter?

    Test it then.

    Read it from the beginning, in fact read the entire book of Ezekiel.

    Identify the very first moment when God is addressing the King of Tyre. And start reading.

    Did the subject of his message ever change?

    Did God say "But you are like Statan, oh King of Tyre, who did this and who did that?"

    No, he did not. 100% of every single instance of the word "you" is directed professly towards the King of Tyre who was in fact a human man, whom is now revealed to be an angel fallen from heaven. This helps us understand that other stories of us being angels in heaven are not figurative, that they can be literal.

    To say that God is talking about Satan, to King of Tyre, is to ignore every writing convention an context known to man. You are forcing that opinion in where no logical grounds for it exist because you are forced with admittinf that the King of Tyre was an angel who fell to earth.

    >all of us are not fallen angels

    The Nephilim were once upon a time different people. Now we are all angels. That one single verse can be debated so It is not truly evidence of my point; rather it is evidence that if you believe the bible there do exist things that fall from heaven to earth such as "the fallen ones" who take physical form and lie with the daughters of man. Whether or not their story is relevant to our own, the fact remains they existed.

    #42274

    WMS brother
    Participant

    Hal, I'm referencing Chapter 28, which your post excludes.

    I'd be glad to read that chapter using your "translation", I maintain that any bibles in all translations still contain the same message though the promise of God.

    Ezekiel was given several different messages from the lord across a number of years, let us identify when and where the example of King Tyre begins and in what context he is introduced.

    Surely the lord speaks that this literal king of Tyre will be defeated by the literal coming of Nebudchadnezzar of Babylon and all the armies, and literally that did happen.

    Surely the lord does not make any mention of anybody else when saying that the King of Tyre fell from heaven.

    #42275

    Smurf
    Participant

    WMS brother wrote:

    Hal, I'm referencing Chapter 28, which your post excludes.

    I'd be glad to read that chapter using your "translation", I maintain that any bibles in all translations still contain the same message though the promise of God.

    Ezekiel was given several different messages from the lord across a number of years, let us identify when and where the example of King Tyre begins and in what context he is introduced.

    Surely the lord speaks that this literal king of Tyre will be defeated by the literal coming of Nebudchadnezzar of Babylon and all the armies, and literally that did happen.

    Surely the lord does not make any mention of anybody else when saying that the King of Tyre fell from heaven.

    I'm gonna have to stop you right there. Still from ezekiel 28:

    …take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

    …You were anointed as a guardian cherub,  for so I ordained you.

    So, the Lord speaks of the King of Tyre and all of a sudden switches to Satan? So is it only the literal king then?

    Or are you implying God has ADD?

    #42276

    Simon
    Participant

    You’re argument helps himactually

    #42277

    Smurf
    Participant

    Well, if he had the angels part right it shouldn't be helping him. But the king of Tyre is clearly being compared (ok, not compared, you are quite the nazi, Simon 🙂  with THE fallen Angel, not a fallen angel. See, all these inconsistencies are too much and are bound to crumble like a deck of cards.

    #42278

    Simon
    Participant

    Don’t see comparative language

    #42279

    Questioninginla
    Participant

    It's almost to the point that I think these people deserve to learn these lessons the hard way.

    The two cities are actual, real, prostitutes too…no symbolisym there!

    Because, you see, the king of Tyre is either no more or not.  It is a logical bind here.  If WMSB's argument is held true, then the king never gets the chance to be king, because he is no more previous to the book of Ezekiel.

    #42280

    Smurf
    Participant

    Back to the Nephilim… Yes WMS brother is right on this one, they did exist and they left a pretty big mark in history. Aiding humanity in its technical progress, giving us secret knowledge, leaving giant monuments that we couldn't have build ourselves… you may know them now as aliens.

    Only a third of them fell (his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth ), so that's what may've got you confused into thinking not all of us are fallen, WMS brother.

    The truth is NONE of us are. The fallen ones made their bed long ago and there is no salvation for them. And I'll summon my dear friend Mathew again… 25:41

    Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

    You understand? Very simple: Salvation for humans, damnation for fallen angels.

    #42281

    Simon
    Participant

    the verse isn't past tense

    #42282

    Simon
    Participant

    are all fallen angels satan's angels?

    #42283

    Smurf
    Participant

    Simon wrote:

    the verse isn't past tense

    i know, i was pointing out the prepared part. prepared IS past tense.

    #42284

    WMS brother
    Participant

    Smurf

    I'm not here to argue about what the Nephilim truly mean, only that a precedent is set that angels can fall to earth in a very physical form.

    Further, your logic highlights the fact that Job happened after the Nephilim. Solomon happened after the Nephilim, Ezekiel happened after the Nephilim, et cetera for all theese examples

    #42285

    Simon
    Participant

    I was addressing questioninginla's no more post 

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