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Home Forums Biblical Arguments Were We Angels That Were Kicked Out Of Heaven?

This topic contains 68 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  Questioninginla 4 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #40232

    Part 6 to this topic was just posted last week and I wanted to just summarize the overall conclusion on this argument. So the WMSCOG claims that all humans on earth were angels before that sinned against God and therefore were kicked out and sent to heaven to be born as humans. In the articles, we have examined a number of Bible verses that the WMSCOG attempt to use to substantiate their claim. So after reading these articles and understanding how the WMSCOG twists the verses to come to their conclusion, I wonder how any WMSCOG member can remain in the group. I mean their argument only makes sense if you take the verses out of context.

    You have to ignore that the verses in Proverbs are the personification of wisdom.

    You have to ignore that the verses in Isaiah point to the second coming of Jesus in Revelation to come to the conclusion that “clouds mean flesh”.

    You have to ignore the parallels drawn between Lucifer and the King of Tyre in Ezekiel.

    You have to ignore that the Bible says that the angels that sinned in heaven were sent to hell. 2 Peter 2:4

    You have to ignore that Abraham and his family left an actual country when you read the verses in Hebrews.

    You have to ignore that the apostle Paul is referring to spiritual death being the wages of sin in Romans.

    So how is it that WMSCOG members don’t realize that you can only come to the WMSCOG’s conclusion that we were angels that were kicked out of heaven if you ignore the context in ALL of the above references. It just doesn’t add up.

    #42246

    ChildOfZion
    Member

    So why we here? Why is this world so horrible? Why are so many people suffering in most parts of the world?

    #42247

    ttr
    Member

    As Christians we believe that the first human beings lived in perfect harmony with God, but that through their free turning away from God, that death and pain entered the world.

    #42248

    ChildOfZion
    Member

    Where did these humans live in perfect harmony with God at? Who were these humans? You say as Christians we believe …… There are hundreds and hundreds of different denominations. Are you saying they are all in agreement? B.c i think we all know that is not true.

    Why am I on this earth? Are you saying that because of Adam and Eve's sin, billions and billions of people have to suffer so much pain in this world? The God of mercy and justice has been punishing the world because of one man's sin?

    How old is the earth? (just curious what you believe)

    #42249

    ttr
    Member

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    Where did these humans live in perfect harmony with God at?

    The Bible says in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:8).  We know this was on Earth because the prophet Ezekial states that the trees in the Garden came from Lebanon (Ezekiel 31:15-18), and that it was located between four rivers (Genesis 2:10).  I know at least two of those (the Tigris and the Euphrates cited in Genesis 2:14) are still there today.  This is largely contained within the present country of Iraq, but the area is also sometimes called "Mesopotamia".  This wikipedia article on the Garden of Eden has much more interesting geographic information.

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    Who were these humans?

    Adam and Eve (Genesis 2:15-25)

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    You say as Christians we believe …… There are hundreds and hundreds of different denominations. Are you saying they are all in agreement?

    It is a pervading Christian belief.  Is that better?

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    Why am I on this earth?

    To love and serve God in this life, and to be happy with Him in the next.  

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    Are you saying that because of Adam and Eve's sin, billions and billions of people have to suffer so much pain in this world? 

    Yes, Romans 5:12 states that death entered the world through one man.  This is another pervasive Christian belief that many Christians call "original sin".

              "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–"

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    The God of mercy and justice has been punishing the world because of one man's sin?

    The God of mercy and justice hung on a cross because of it.  Pain and suffering are a mystery in this life we will not understand this side of death, but we can take solace in knowing that Christ suffered too.. and He was without sin. 

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    How old is the earth? (just curious what you believe)

    Science can prove that the earth is approximately 4.54 billion years old.  I am of the same opinion. 

    #42250

    ChildOfZion
    Member

    The timeline to Adam is only about 6,000 years old, this also is a predominant Christian belief. But humans have exsisted much longer than that according to science. The prevading Christian belief is that the Earth is only 6000 (roughly) years old. So you have said the earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old. If the earth is 4.5 billion years old, but the timeline to adam only goes back about 6,000 years, there's a lot of time before Adam was made. I guess my question is now, were Adam and Eve the first pople on the Earth? According to science, people exsisted long before then, but according to the predominant Christian belief Adam and Eve were the first two people on the Earth.

    lol i'm sorry, lets start this conversation over and stick with just one question at a time (my bad). feel free to ask me one question at a time also if you wich. It's just easier this way since we are on the net and taking a while to get back to each other. It's not like we can have an actual conversation and go through each other's questions (if you even have any, maybe you dont).

    #42251

    genny
    Participant

    Sounds like this could turn into a debate about creation vs evolution, which could get lengthy.  I'll just input that personally I believe in more of the young earth ideas, but I don't mind disagreeing about this, as long as we agree that it was God that made everything (not just chance).

    And yes, I do believe Adam and Eve were the first people.  Do you believe people really lived as long as it says in Genesis 5?  If so, since Adam lived 930 years he had plenty of time to have lots of sons and daughters.  I don't see a problem with Adam and Eve being the first people.  But this is probably a minor thing to argue about.

    Going back to the original posting, in order to accept the wmscog doctrine about angels, all those verses must be taken out of context.

    Also, you'd have to believe that God is not in control of justice in heaven, since Ahnsahnghong taught that some angels were "unjustly accused and hurled to the earth." http://encountering-ahnsahnghong.blogspot.com/2010/05/is-god-unjust.html

    #42252

    Oscar
    Member

    @childofzion I am going to answer your question about the Earth's age and Adam and Eve. Listen… time is a concept of man. God has dominion over everything. Time began when man came along. Man thought of what time is. There are Biblical scholars that say the Adam and Eve story is a metaphor for when man became civilized. In other words man stopped being hunter gatherers and went on to farming and so forth. Was there a Adam and Eve? Yes, Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree of knowledge and became civilized. Even archaeologists and historians say that civilization came from the Mid-East around Mesopotamia, right around Adam and Eve where situated at.  Is the Earth 6000 years old? Depends on who you ask, because again time is a concept from man. Is the Earth 4.5 billion years old? Yes according to science. What do I say how old it is? Its as old as science think it is and have gathered evidence on, even then theories can change. How old (or far back) was Adam and Eve in our timeline? Thousands of years, they were the first ones that started civilization. But again time is a concept of man.

    #42253

    ttr
    Member

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    The timeline to Adam is only about 6,000 years old, this also is a predominant Christian belief. But humans have exsisted much longer than that according to science. The prevading Christian belief is that the Earth is only 6000 (roughly) years old. So you have said the earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old. If the earth is 4.5 billion years old, but the timeline to adam only goes back about 6,000 years, there's a lot of time before Adam was made. I guess my question is now, were Adam and Eve the first pople on the Earth? According to science, people exsisted long before then, but according to the predominant Christian belief Adam and Eve were the first two people on the Earth.

    It is true that some Christians believe the Earth to be only 6,000 years old.  At any rate, it can be easily disproved by science.

    Adam and Eve were certainly the first people on Earth, in the sense of they were the first to have an immortal soul in relation to God.  Whether God gradually brought people up over time using evolution, and then infused a human soul and elevated them to the garden, or whether He created them instantly in the Garden, or some other possibility, I do not think anyone can claim with any certainty.  Also, some debate whether Adam and Eve were the only two people, or whether they were representatives of a larger group of people.  Genesis is largely written from their point of view, so it's hard to say.

    Whether the timeline to Adam and Eve is 6,000 years is an interesting question.  I would like to see some studies on whether that is enough time to account for the diversity among nationalities in people.  If it's not, then those that hold to a 6K year timeline should probably re-examine their estimate.  The confusion I think stems from "day" in Scripture not always referring to a literal 24-hour period.  Also, I believe there was an ancient Hebrew practice of assigning large numbers to people's lifespans to signify their importance, and not necessarily the precise number of years they walked the earth.

    Whether these numbers are precise, or not,.. whether it's 6K years to Adam or not.. how old the Earth is… all of those questions I find fascinating, but unfortunately some people try to squeeze the Bible and get science out of it, when all you're going to get is morals.  After all, it's a book about theology, not science.  It's full of allegories, metaphors, morals, history, and precise truths.  Who knows exactly which verse is which?  I'd say, no one except God and the original author.  lol

    At any rate, it's important to put these numbers in context.. that is they are secondary to the issue of Jesus Christ coming back from the dead, which is the reason for our faith.  After that, it's fun to debate these questions and get different ideas, but our faith shouldn't hinge upon someone's mathematical proof they've mined out of Scripture from verses they can't definitively say are actually literal numbers or days or years.

    #42254

    genny
    Participant

    they are secondary to the issue of Jesus Christ coming back from the dead, which is the reason for our faith.  After that, it's fun to debate these questions and get different ideas, but our faith shouldn't hinge upon someone's mathematical proof they've mined out of Scripture from verses they can't definitively say are actually literal numbers or days or years.

    Amen to that

    #42255

    ChildOfZion
    Member

    The reason I ask about Adam and Eve is for a couple of reasons.  We have to know the story of Adam and Even clearly right? They are the first two “humans” to receive the Breath of Life from God.

    The Bible says that God makes known the End from the Beginning (Isa 46:10).. This is the story of the first spirits, the story of sin, and the way of eternal life.  The Bible also says that every story written in the past was written, and chosen to be in the Bible, to teach us (rom 5:14).

    Without understanding the beginning we cannot understand the end, God’s plan or redemption for all of us.

    Ttr

    You say, “As Christians we believe that the first human beings lived in perfect harmony with God, but that through their free turning away from God, that death and pain entered the world, and that Adam and Eve were these first human beings.

     

    But then you go on to say, “Whether God gradually brought people up over time using evolution, and then infused a human soul and elevated them to the garden, or whether He created them instantly in the Garden, or some other possibility, I do not think anyone can claim with any certainty.And also Whether these numbers are precise, or not,.. whether it's 6K years to Adam or not.. how old the Earth is… all of those questions I find fascinating, but unfortunately some people try to squeeze the Bible and get science out of it, when all you're going to get is morals.  After all, it's a book about theology, not science.  It's full of allegories, metaphors, morals, history, and precise truths.  Who knows exactly which verse is which?  I'd say, no one except God and the original author."                In Jn. 6:44-46 the Bible tells us that those truly taught by Jesus have been taught by God, therefore those who belong to the true Church should know the truth of life contained in the creation story. You say the Bible is full of allegories and metaphors, but you think the garden of Eden literally existed somewhere in Iraq. Has anyone ever come across this garden? Has anyone ever come along a tree guarded by two guardian angels with flaming sword, the Tree of Life?

    Matt13:34-35 shows us that Jesus revealed that which had been hidden since the creation of the world. What has been hidden since the creation story? The garden of Eden, the place where we once had eternal life!

    Whether the timeline to Adam and Eve is 6,000 years is an interesting question.  I would like to see some studies on whether that is enough time to account for the diversity among nationalities in people.  If it's not, then those that hold to a 6K year timeline should probably re-examine their estimate.  The confusion I think stems from "day" in Scripture not always referring to a literal 24-hour period.                                                                                                                                                                                                                         The timeline back to Adam is not in question, his lineage is documented clearly. You may research it for yourself, but the earth was already geographically populated 6000 years ago (national geographic had a good documentary about it). And this is partially the point I would like to talk about.

    Oscar

    "I am going to answer your question about the Earth's age and Adam and Eve. Listen… time is a concept of man. God has dominion over everything. Time began when man came along."                                                                                                                                      Oscar, you are in error because you do not know the scripture or the power and administration of God. Genesis 1:3-…And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. Time was in existence before man was created. Man did not come along until the sixth day. Time is a concept of God, from the very beginning.  This means that God has a time and a place for everything also (Ecc3:1). The End is made known from the beginning.

    Ttr…

    "Whether these numbers are precise, or not,.. whether it's 6K years to Adam or not.. how old the Earth is… all of those questions I find fascinating, but unfortunatelysome people try to squeeze the Bible and get science out of it, when all you're going to get is morals.  After all, it's a book about theology, not science. It's full of allegories, metaphors, morals, history, and precise truths.  Who knows exactly which verse is which?  I'd say, no one except God and the original author."                                                                                                              Then how do you understand the precise truth if you cannot clearly say which verses testify to what? Doesn’t sound like a precise truth really. The Bible is so much more than just morals (honestly we don’t need the Bible to have good morals. Many atheists are the nicest people) On one hand you say that the Bible is full of metaphors and allegories, and yet you also say that the story of the Garden of Eden is, “Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:8).  We know this was on Earth because the prophet Ezekiel states that the trees in the Garden came from Lebanon (Ezekiel 31:15-18), and that it was located between four rivers (Genesis 2:10)How do you know that this is not a metaphor? To take this verse literal and think that the trees of Eden were literally from Lebanon is a contradiction to your own belief on the scriptures. Is Lebanon known for their trees of knowledge of the good and evil and their trees of Life?

     

     

    We can know that Adam and Eve weren’t the first two humans also because when Cain killed his brother and was banished in Genesis 4:10-17 he was sent to the land of nod east of Eden and was afraid that people would kill him; and he also found a wife. Notice none of those people’s names were recorded, b/c they did not have a spirit of life. If Adam and Eve were the first two people, the no one would have existed to kill Cain. Add in that geographically the earth was already populated by people (beasts) 6,000 years ago, we can understand why Cain would be afraid.

    Since Adam and Eve weren’t actually the first people then, and the Earth was already created, then the creation story is not about a physical creation is it?

     

    #42256

    genny
    Participant

    Hi ChildOfZion,

    We can know that Adam and Eve weren’t the first two humans also because when Cain killed his brother and was banished in Genesis 4:10-17 he was sent to the land of nod east of Eden and was afraid that people would kill him; and he also found a wife. Notice none of those people’s names were recorded, b/c they did not have a spirit of life. If Adam and Eve were the first two people, the no one would have existed to kill Cain. Add in that geographically the earth was already populated by people (beasts) 6,000 years ago, we can understand why Cain would be afraid.

    Yes, it is possible that Adam and Eve were the first two humans.  Eve could have given birth to one baby each year (unless she had twins).  And read Gen. 5:3-5.  Adam lived a total of 930 years and had "sons and daughters."  Considering that those children would grown and begin having their own children, you could get a lot of people rather quickly.  And does the Bible tell us how old Cain and Abel were when this incident happened?  We tend to imagine that the boys were on the young side, but they could have been older with the world more populated by then with all those children and grandchildren (and great grandchildren) of Adam and Eve, one of whom would have become Cain's wife.

    Just saying it's possible…

    #42257

    ChildOfZion
    Member

    Reagrdless if that is true, the earth was entirely populated 6,000 years ago, much much much longer. Millions of years ago dinosarus exsisted and went extinct. The creation story cannot be about the physical creation, since the world was already created at the time of Adam and Eve.

    #42258

    ttr
    Member

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    In Jn. 6:44-46 the Bible tells us that those truly taught by Jesus have been taught by God, therefore those who belong to the true Church should know the truth of life contained in the creation story.

    sorry ChildOfZion, what John 6:45 says is:

    It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’

    that says "they will all be taught by God", not "they will be taught all by God".  God can teach you something true, but He doesn't have to teach you all truths.  That is an opinion you are forcing upon the text that simply isn't there.

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    You say the Bible is full of allegories and metaphors, but you think the garden of Eden literally existed somewhere in Iraq.

     

    "but"?  you mean "and".  what i said in context was:  "It's full of allegories, metaphors, morals, history, and precise truths.  Who knows exactly which verse is which?  I'd say, no one except God and the original author."  this allows me to hold to a literal garden on the earth, or a figurative one… until i see further evidence that would help me to know which verses are which, but either way my faith doesn't hinge upon it.  that was the point of my response. 

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    Has anyone ever come along a tree guarded by two guardian angels with flaming sword, the Tree of Life?

    Can't say for certain.  Then again, if we hold to a literal garden, we can't say the garden wasn't destroyed either.

     

    ChildOfZion wrote:

    Matt13:34-35 shows us that Jesus revealed that which had been hidden since the creation of the world. What has been hidden since the creation story? The garden of Eden, the place where we once had eternal life!

    It'd be quite a stretch to say Jesus is speaking specifically about the physical Garden of Eden, but I don't see your point here anyway.

    ChildOfZion wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                     The timeline back to Adam is not in question, his lineage is documented clearly.

    No, dude.  I never said his lineage was in question, I said the exact number of calendar days was. 

    ChildOfZion wrote:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    You may research it for yourself, but the earth was already geographically populated 6000 years ago (national geographic had a good documentary about it).

    what does "geographically populated" mean?  do you mean to say completely populated/diverse nationalities?  the point was not whether or not the earth was populated 6000 years ago, but whether it began to be populated 6000 years ago.  the question is whether it took 6000 years to get where we are, or whether it took longer.  if it took longer, then of course it would be completely and diversely populated 6000 years ago, but if it began to be populated 6000 years ago.. could this account for the diversity?

    ChildOfZion wrote:

       And this is partially the point I would like to talk about.

    i would love to talk about this point.  by all means.. please proceed.

     

    #42259

    Oscar
    Member

    @ChildOfZion Okay let me break it down to you in the following way. Because it seems you did not understand me well. Let's go to the Bible in Genesis 1:1 it says: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." What did God create in the beginning? …the heaven and the earth. Not time. Who was the author of Genesis? Moses, a man inspired by God. Moses was writing the book and he said that "In the beginning…" because man does not comprehend fully the power that God has and had to have a starting point of time because God has always been around you see. See the history channel on what I was talking about on Adam and Eve. I believe you are in great error and you don't know scripture at all because you said that Genesis 1:3 says "<font color=”#1c256a”>Genesis 1:3</font>-…And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day """.  "" "  " Genesis 1:3 does not say that at all. Which corrupt Bible do you use? Or are you corrupted? Or have you been corrupted? Next issue. About the book of Ecclesiastes… do you know what that entire book is about? If you do or do not then just please answer the question anyway. Let's see what Ecclesiastes 3:1 says: "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Did you understand that verse? Read it again. Now I'm going to capitalize some parts of this verse so you can understand what it really is trying to portray. "To every thing there is a season, and a TIME to every purpose UNDER the HEAVEN:" Notice how it mentions at the end of the verse "under the heaven." What is under the heaven? Man is. What else is under the heaven in that verse? Now you understand what I was trying to say? Oh yes one more thing please don't play judge and say that I don't know scripture or the power and administration of God because I do know quite a bit, plus I accept it. I also know that the devil knows scripture as well and is the ruler of this world. We must be careful which side we are on. II Corinthians 4:4.

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