[Elievalkyrie]

Hey there, Sarah. Genny you are welcome to join but please take it easy on me. lol.

Let's start with the T shall we?

Total Depravity. Do you understand what this means? Do you have any objections with this? Forum is now open for discussions. lol.

[Sarah2013]

[Sarah2013]

Sure! Lets go with your backup scripture on this.

[Elievalkyrie]

Wait, do you have any objections with Total Depravity? Because you said that you do not agree with some of the points in Calvinism. I take it that you agree with other points, is Total Depravity one of them or do you not agree with this?

[Sarah2013]

No. I do not agree with it.

[Sarah2013]

I’m coming to this, Eli.

[Elievalkyrie]

The doctrine of total depravity (or total inability) says that all men, as a consequence of the Fall, are born morally corrupt, enslaved to sin, at enmity with God, and unable to please Him or even of themselves to turn to Christ for salvation.

Which part in this do you not agree with?

I guess I have to provide biblical support on this. Here's the list:

 

• Ecclesiastes 7:29 – "See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes."
• Romans 5:7-8 – For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

• Psalm 143:2 – Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.
• Romans 11:32 – For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. (c.f. Galatians 3:22)
• Romans 3:23 – for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
• Isaiah 53:6 – All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way
• Micah 7:2-4 – The godly has perished from the earth, and there is no one upright among mankind; they all lie in wait for blood, and each hunts the other with a net. Their hands are on what is evil, to do it well; the prince and the judge ask for a bribe, and the great man utters the evil desire of his soul; thus they weave it together. The best of them is like a brier, the most upright of them a thorn hedge.
• Romans 3:9-12 – What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” (c.f. Psalm 14:1-3, 53:1-3)
• 1 John 1:8,10 – If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar, and his word is not in us.
• Mark 10:18/Luke 18:19 – And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."

• Mark 7:21-23 – "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person." (c.f. Matthew 15:19)
• Psalm 5:9 – For there is no truth in their mouth; their inmost self is destruction; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.

• Jeremiah 17:9 – "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
• Titus 1:15-16 – to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
• Ecclesiastes 9:3 – Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
• Ephesians 4:17-18 – you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
• Jeremiah 10:7-8,14 – among all the wise ones of the nations and in all their kingdoms there is none like you. They are both stupid and foolish… Every man is stupid and without knowledge
• Matthew 15:19 – "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander." (c.f. Mark 7:21-23)
• Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 – The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from his youth.
• Proverbs 10:20 – the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
• Proverbs 28:26 – Whoever trusts in his own [heart] is a fool

[Sarah2013]

First, we have the ability to come to Christ. In John 5:40 we hear Jesus saythey refuse to come to him to have eternal life (paraphrased). Not wanting to do something has to do with free will.

The following are scriptures from the site you attached to me. I have elaborated on the more complex ones to the best of my knowledge.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (Jn. 6:44)

Having quoted this scripture from the site you gave me, I ask that you also read it down to verse 51. It’s so imperative that when in doubt, we read in its entirety. The word of God does not contradict itself. We contradict the word sometimes. Now… i only know in part and feel what i know guarantees me a ticket to heaven.

God hardened Pharaohs heart (Ex. 9:12) yet, kept insisting through Moses that Pharaoh release the children of Israel. We see that after God displayed some supernatural acts which glorified him, Pharaoh released the children of israel. Two things happened here, the glorification of God and the pride of Pharaoh. I believe when a person’s heart is hardened it is because of the pride that God knows is in their heart. God knows their hearts so he lets them have their way. We later see that Pharaoh let go of his pride, becoming submissive to God , especially after the loss of his son. likewise, God drawing someone to him, to the best of my knowledge, will be two fold. There has to exist a willingness to want God and God allowing him to receive salvation due to this willingness. God didn’t need to create the angels who rebelled against him, right? but he did, allowing them the power of choice. This is why we can pray and ask God to touch the heart of someone and he answers but not by making them puppets, but instead, by softening their hearts with their own will in action. If say i have a 3 year old daughter who was scared of strangers, i convince her that the person she thinks is a stranger is her aunt. if she believes me she will stop being afraid of her aunt, right? but this will be by her will and not mine. I cant make her stop being afraid, right? but she can choose to stop being afraid. True…. we are talking about the almighty God and not human beings but for the effect of my argument i had to throw this in. God has gone out of his way since the beginning of time to save man, it will only make sense to think he can’t force them because he has designed us this way or all his effort is a joke.

“no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” (Jn. 6:65)

Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.” (Jn. 8:43). Remember prior to Jesus’ arrival and teachings, many were still in the dark spiritually. The hearts of men were hardened due to sin. It is this blood that Jesus shed as the one time sacrificial human lamb that opened our hearts to believe and accept. However, this is by choice. He said it is not my will that any man perish. You cannot know if you have not heard, right? Jesus had to prove he is God, of which he did and those who will accept him did. It is the same now, for those who have accepted him today. I don’t believe the above scripture is saying they cannot accept because God has willed them not to accept. That to me contradicts everything he is about. Not being able to listen to his words I believe has more to do with sin. Righteousness and sin cannot co-exist, the same way faith and fear cannot co-exist in the heart. Faith in fear out, or fear in faith out.

They could not believe because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.” (Jn. 12:39-u40).

For this scripture, sin once again, is the reason their spiritual eyes and hearts was blinded. Jesus had to die for man to gain access and for their spiritual eyes to open; that is, those ( those, meaning, he knows the ones who will repent and those who will not. All free will). Today, those who worship satan literally are blinded spiritually, but some will eventually repent and come out of it. Remember, the all powerful God is all knowing but must be just and faithful to his word. Can His heart be changed toward a rebellious person, certainly. We can spiritually move God’s hand through prayer. The more we beseech him in prayer, the more he feels for us. After all, though we are not gods, we are made in his image and likeness.

Eli, lets have fun with this one. Bring your opposing response when time permits.

[Elievalkyrie]

Sarah2013 wrote:

First, we have the ability to come to Christ. In John 5:40 we hear Jesus say they refuse to come to him to have eternal life (paraphrased). Not wanting to do something has to do with free will.

 

Moral obligation does not imply ability. John 5:40 confirms that we do have a choice but this does not imply that we have the ability choose. We must differentiate volition(choices) from ability. Just because volition exist does not necessarily mean that you have the ability to make that choice. Allow me to give a little example. Apple is good, Orange is bad. I am free to choose between an apple and a orange (Free Choice), since I am orange-loving and hates apple (Sinful Nature), Myself would not allow me to choose the apple. I could not go against myself. But did I make a choice? Yes. I choose the orange. Am I accountable because I choose the orange? Yes because I willingly choose it, I was even happy when I choose the orange. Before I can choose the apple, someone must teach me to love apples. Someone that have to ability to change my orange-loving nature into an apple-loving one, someone other than Myself because I could never go against Myself. Therefore, when I finally do have a "change" of heart and started loving apples, I cannot take credit for it because without that "someone", I would never have choose the apple. I really do hope I am getting my point across here.

 

The following are scriptures from the site you attached to me. I have elaborated on the more complex ones to the best of my knowledge.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (Jn. 6:44)

Having quoted this scripture from the site you gave me, I ask that you also read it down to verse 51. It's so imperative that when in doubt, we read in its entirety.

 

I have read until verse 51. I do not see anything that could contradict my view in this. First it was stated, "No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father". No matter how much you try to twist the sentence, the result would still mean "NO ONE". It was further stated "Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to me." This supports the above verse. We can only hear the Father if He made us hear Him. We could only learn if He let us learn. Verse 50, "But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die." Ofcourse anyone can eat, but did EVERYONE ate?" No because they were not "drawn" to eat, you cannot discard the first thing Jesus said, it is connected.

 

God hardened Pharaohs heart (Ex. 9:12) yet, kept insisting through Moses that Pharaoh release the children of Israel. We see that after God displayed some supernatural acts which glorified him, Pharaoh released the children of israel. Two things happened here, the glorification of God and the pride of Pharaoh. I believe when a person's heart is hardened it is because of the pride that God knows is in their heart. God knows their hearts so he lets them have their way. We later see that Pharaoh let go of his pride, becoming submissive to God , especially after the loss of his son. likewise, God drawing someone to him, to the best of my knowledge, will be two fold. There has to exist a willingness to want God and God allowing him to receive salvation due to this willingness.

 

Pharaoh was prideful because God made him prideful, he was raised up and made up to be prideful. God did not hardened Pharaoh's heart BECAUSE he was prideful, God hardened his heart so that HE WILL BE prideful. Start with the beginning, God is the beginning. Start with God, don't start with man.

 

God didn't need to create the angels who rebelled against him, right? but he did, allowing them the power of choice.

 

God allowed the angels to rebel against him. It was part of His plan. The plan He made before the foundation of the world. God wanted to send a Saviour, if people do not sin then a Saviour cannot be sent. The people cannot sin if the laws weren't made so the laws were made so that people will indeed sin. Adam and Eve would not have sinned if there was no one to tempt them. The serpent was purposely put in the garden  to tempt Adam and Eve to sinned. The serpent wouldn't be there to tempt them if God didn't create him (Gen.3:1, "now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God has MADE). The serpent (Satan) wouldn't exist if the angels did not rebel. The rebellion happened not because God cannot stop it, it happened because He allowed it to happen all according to His plan. See? It has and always have been God's plan. He is in perfect control of EVERYTHING.

 

This is why we can pray and ask God to touch the heart of someone and he answers but not by making them puppets, but instead, by softening their hearts with their own will in action. If say i have a 3 year old daughter who was scared of strangers, i convince her that the person she thinks is a stranger is her aunt. if she believes me she will stop being afraid of her aunt, right? but this will be by her will and not mine. I cant make her stop being afraid, right? but she can choose to stop being afraid. True…. we are talking about the almighty God and not human beings but for the effect of my argument i had to throw this in. God has gone out of his way since the beginning of time to save man, it will only make sense to think he can't force them because he has designed us this way or all his effort is a joke.

 

I keep repeating this, don't know if you've read it but let me repeat it again. God doesn't force. Forcing means there is "resistance". If you are empowered by God, you cannot resist it. He doesn't have to force you, you wouldn't even be aware, much less resist. You will only feel that you somehow feel different than before.

 

If I try to accept your reasoning, then I have to make a conclusion that it is US who saves ourselves. It is, by my own free will, that I choose Jesus. I take credit for it because I DID it. No one helped me do it. Therefore, it is I that is responsible for my salvation. So unless you can explain this, I cannot accept your reasoning.

 

Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.” (Jn. 8:43). Remember prior to Jesus' arrival and teachings, many were still in the dark spiritually. The hearts of men were hardened due to sin. It is this blood that Jesus shed as the one time sacrificial human lamb that opened our hearts to believe and accept. However, this is by choice.

 

Again with the word "choice". Free Choice is different from Free Will. I notice you keep interchanging the two. Can we clearly separate it to avoid confusion? Also, your explanations still cannot change the fact given above that Jesus stated, "You are NOT ABLE to". This means we are not able, we do not have the ability. Please analyze your own statement, "…that opened our hearts to believe and accept." Did we open our hearts out of our own free WILL or SOMEONE opened it for us? (Ezekiel 36:26, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.)

 

He said it is not my will that any man perish. You cannot know if you have not heard, right?

 

Again, you would not hear if you were not MADE to hear.

 

Jesus had to prove he is God, of which he did and those who will accept him did. It is the same now, for those who have accepted him today. I don't believe the above scripture is saying they cannot accept because God has willed them not to accept. That to me contradicts everything he is about. Not being able to listen to his words I believe has more to do with sin.

 

But sin is the very nature of man. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. Your very nature is against God. That's why it's so hard to do good and very easy (even pleasurable) to do sin. You are not in neutral position to choose between positive and negative, you are already in the negative and without something positive to help you, you cannot become positive. Also, there is a difference between God willing them not to accept and man not having the ability to accept. You cannot point the sin to God.

 

Righteousness and sin cannot co-exist, the same way faith and fear cannot co-exist in the heart. Faith in fear out, or fear in faith out.

 

I have to disagree. You both have to have faith and have fear in God. Fear is not encourage only if you focus it on wordly things that can harm you because you should not fear them, you should fear God who can do much worse. But fear in God is a good fear, because the object of your fear is pointing in the right way. Not sure if I made sense but I still maintain that fear and faith can coexist. Not only can but MUST.

Psalms 33:8 – Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. Proverbs 14:27 – The fear of the LORD [is] a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death. Proverbs 3:7 – Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

 

They could not believe because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.” (Jn. 12:39-u40).

For this scripture, sin once again, is the reason their spiritual eyes and hearts was blinded. Jesus had to die for man to gain access and for their spiritual eyes to open; that is, those ( those, meaning, he knows the ones who will repent and those who will not. All free will). Today, those who worship satan literally are blinded spiritually, but some will eventually repent and come out of it. Remember, the all powerful God is all knowing but must be just and faithful to his word. Can His heart be changed toward a rebellious person, certainly. We can spiritually move God's hand through prayer. The more we beseech him in prayer, the more he feels for us. After all, though we are not gods, we are made in his image and likeness.

Eli, lets have fun with this one. Bring your opposing response when time permits.

 

Sarah, I think I have already given sufficient counter-arguments above. I won't respond to this one to avoid redundancy. I will wait for your response. ^_^

[Sarah2013]

No indication that you debated my response.

[Sarah2013]

From what I see… We have no free will based on our belief. I might as well just let up the ghost.

[Elievalkyrie]

Hmmm… I could only conclude that you did not understand my point of view coz I did not state it clearly enough. Can we just do a question and answer type of discussion here? You can ask a simplified question and I'll answer. Or you can state something, then I'll be the one to ask. Which do you prefer?

[Elievalkyrie]

Sarah2013 wrote:

From what I see… We have no free will based on our belief. I might as well just let up the ghost.

Can you please give me a definition of your "Free will"?

I would like to ask…did you read all of my counter comments? Can you please give each one of them your own counter comments? Not that I am demanding but your short response makes me think that you have not read my previous statements more slowly or deeply.

[Sarah2013]

Ok Eli. I will respond later in the day.