- Topic
In another post Emily brought up another concept that I feel deserves its own posting. WMS members are taught that their doctrine is the only real truth. By labeling it as such it leaves no room for discussion or correction. I say this because if anything is brought up that contradicts their teachings then they believe that it can’t be the truth and therefore must be a lie. In the members minds everything that we bring up here seems to be a lie. Only when a WMS member can get past this does the truth become relevant. Only when the truth becomes relevant does the arguments stop. It’s no wonder that some people can’t seem to stop arguing no matter what has been proven or revealed.
I am going to say one argument to this which is TECHNICALLY a fallacy but I think it does need to be mentioned in fairness:
Now as for what you say about WMC (or Emily says) I have to admit it can be difficult to accept arguments made against doctrine's. But ultimately for me at least I have substantially longer confidence in a lot of the doctrine than ash or zgj. Also for better or for worse attacking someone's character to disprove them as Christ is not the best method because it can appear just a repeat of history because we all know they made up all sorts of lies about Jesus and throughout Biblical history even false witnesses were used to prove it. I of course do not know what brought other people out but for me the repeated statements about ASH and ZGJ being married and divorced before are really not compelling in the least.
The apparent contradictions in Daniels prophecy and about tabernacles are compelling because you are actually using scripture and comparing it to doctrine rather than comparing it to adhominems.
Pastor directly said if you as an antiWMC person (for want of a better term) can show through scriptrue truth from falsehood we should listen, which is what the claims about Tabernacles and Daniels prophecy are at least compelling me towards when I am not being accused of things or reading ad hominems.
I am going to say one argument to this which is TECHNICALLY a fallacy but I think it does need to be mentioned in fairness:
Now as for what you say about WMC (or Emily says) I have to admit it can be difficult to accept arguments made against doctrine's. But ultimately for me at least I have substantially longer confidence in a lot of the doctrine than ash or zgj. Also for better or for worse attacking someone's character to disprove them as Christ is not the best method because it can appear just a repeat of history because we all know they made up all sorts of lies about Jesus and throughout Biblical history even false witnesses were used to prove it. I of course do not know what brought other people out but for me the repeated statements about ASH and ZGJ being married and divorced before are really not compelling in the least.
The apparent contradictions in Daniels prophecy and about tabernacles are compelling because you are actually using scripture and comparing it to doctrine rather than comparing it to adhominems.
Pastor directly said if you as an antiWMC person (for want of a better term) can show through scriptrue truth from falsehood we should listen, which is what the claims about Tabernacles and Daniels prophecy are at least compelling me towards when I am not being accused of things or reading ad hominems.
I know in the Old Testament God allowed it but Jesus explained it was a concession for the callused hearts of Israel not because he approves of it. Jehovah explaind through Malachai the last prophet before John Mal 2:16 “I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “because the man who divorces his wife covers his garment with violence,” or the alternate translation is “The man who hates and divorces his wife, ” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” either way God clearly is not into divorce.
The only exception granted in scripture is being abandoned by an unbelieving spouse and there is question about the other party cheating on you I have heard arguments both ways.
I know in the Old Testament God allowed it but Jesus explained it was a concession for the callused hearts of Israel not because he approves of it. Jehovah explaind through Malachai the last prophet before John Mal 2:16 “I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “because the man who divorces his wife covers his garment with violence,” or the alternate translation is “The man who hates and divorces his wife, ” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” either way God clearly is not into divorce.
The only exception granted in scripture is being abandoned by an unbelieving spouse and there is question about the other party cheating on you I have heard arguments both ways.
I know Ahn played around with other women a lot, and may have had children with more than one, but was he divorced at one time? I know Zhang the Mommy was divorced but I wasn't aware that Ahn was …..
I know Ahn played around with other women a lot, and may have had children with more than one, but was he divorced at one time? I know Zhang the Mommy was divorced but I wasn't aware that Ahn was …..
shimon wrote:
I know in the Old Testament God allowed it but Jesus explained it was a concession for the callused hearts of Israel not because he approves of it. Jehovah explaind through Malachai the last prophet before John Mal 2:16 “I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “because the man who divorces his wife covers his garment with violence,” or the alternate translation is “The man who hates and divorces his wife, ” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” either way God clearly is not into divorce.
The only exception granted in scripture is being abandoned by an unbelieving spouse and there is question about the other party cheating on you I have heard arguments both ways.
Shimon,
You bring up an interesting point. It is the unbelieving spouse that leaves in Corinthians. But what about the WMSCOG members that leave their spouses because they are not members of the church? I personally know members who have left their spouses for this reason. Why isn't the WMSCOG counseling their members to stay and reconcile with their spouses? Why do they condone something that, as you cited, God hates?
Sueno Maruyama wrote:
I know Ahn played around with other women a lot, and may have had children with more than one, but was he divorced at one time? I know Zhang the Mommy was divorced but I wasn't aware that Ahn was …..
According to the NCPCOG, where one of Ahn's sons is still a member today, Ahn never divorced his only legal wife HwangWonSon.
shimon wrote:
I know in the Old Testament God allowed it but Jesus explained it was a concession for the callused hearts of Israel not because he approves of it. Jehovah explaind through Malachai the last prophet before John Mal 2:16 “I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “because the man who divorces his wife covers his garment with violence,” or the alternate translation is “The man who hates and divorces his wife, ” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” either way God clearly is not into divorce.
The only exception granted in scripture is being abandoned by an unbelieving spouse and there is question about the other party cheating on you I have heard arguments both ways.
Shimon,
You bring up an interesting point. It is the unbelieving spouse that leaves in Corinthians. But what about the WMSCOG members that leave their spouses because they are not members of the church? I personally know members who have left their spouses for this reason. Why isn't the WMSCOG counseling their members to stay and reconcile with their spouses? Why do they condone something that, as you cited, God hates?
Sueno Maruyama wrote:
I know Ahn played around with other women a lot, and may have had children with more than one, but was he divorced at one time? I know Zhang the Mommy was divorced but I wasn't aware that Ahn was …..
According to the NCPCOG, where one of Ahn's sons is still a member today, Ahn never divorced his only legal wife HwangWonSon.
Joshua wrote:
I know it keeps coming up but can you understand how the issue of divorce keeps haunting the pasts of Ahn and Zahng? Personally I feel that divorce when a man pursues without just cause is worse because he is supposed to be the representation of Jesus Christ in his home. As Jesus is the head of the church we as men are to be the head of our household. In your opinion is my view wrong?
I can see why people would want to talk about it certainly, unfortuenately it is always hard to be sure of a complete story when it comes to a divorce. Both sides lie, make hyperbole, all sorts of stuff.
As far as your second point I am not sure, I CAN see your reasoning I am not sure if I agree though.
Sueno Maruyama wrote:
I know Ahn played around with other women a lot, and may have had children with more than one,
Do you have evidence of this?
Emily wrote:
Shimon,
You bring up an interesting point. It is the unbelieving spouse that leaves in Corinthians. But what about the WMSCOG members that leave their spouses because they are not members of the church? I personally know members who have left their spouses for this reason. Why isn't the WMSCOG counseling their members to stay and reconcile with their spouses? Why do they condone something that, as you cited, God hates?
Okay I do not know the circumstances of their divorces. I do not know if I listed the only biblical exceptions. Also, we cannot know what they are being counseled. People are good at asking advise and when they do not like it thinking "what the ##$@$ does this guy know anyway?" and ignoring it.
But if there really is no other exception and they are advising them to seperate that is certainly strange… can you site a specific example of someone you know or knew who was adivsed to leave without biblical support (who wasn't being severely abused or something because I think that that is generally an exception because I genrally believe that can be defended or atleast forgiven.
Sueno Maruyama wrote:
I know Ahn played around with other women a lot, and may have had children with more than one, but was he divorced at one time? I know Zhang the Mommy was divorced but I wasn't aware that Ahn was …..
According to the NCPCOG, where one of Ahn's sons is still a member today, Ahn never divorced his only legal wife HwangWonSon.
NCPCOG may be incorrect, they do have motive to make ZGJ look like a liar as best they can. They could also be incorect. Many possiblities behind what they say. Further was she still alive Passover 1984? That certainly would resolve that issue pretty easily. There certainly are photographs of ASH and ZGJ in wedding clothes. So the metaphorical wedding certainly happened if there was a divorce or not.
Joshua wrote:
I know it keeps coming up but can you understand how the issue of divorce keeps haunting the pasts of Ahn and Zahng? Personally I feel that divorce when a man pursues without just cause is worse because he is supposed to be the representation of Jesus Christ in his home. As Jesus is the head of the church we as men are to be the head of our household. In your opinion is my view wrong?
I can see why people would want to talk about it certainly, unfortuenately it is always hard to be sure of a complete story when it comes to a divorce. Both sides lie, make hyperbole, all sorts of stuff.
As far as your second point I am not sure, I CAN see your reasoning I am not sure if I agree though.
Sueno Maruyama wrote:
I know Ahn played around with other women a lot, and may have had children with more than one,
Do you have evidence of this?
Emily wrote:
Shimon,
You bring up an interesting point. It is the unbelieving spouse that leaves in Corinthians. But what about the WMSCOG members that leave their spouses because they are not members of the church? I personally know members who have left their spouses for this reason. Why isn't the WMSCOG counseling their members to stay and reconcile with their spouses? Why do they condone something that, as you cited, God hates?
Okay I do not know the circumstances of their divorces. I do not know if I listed the only biblical exceptions. Also, we cannot know what they are being counseled. People are good at asking advise and when they do not like it thinking "what the ##$@$ does this guy know anyway?" and ignoring it.
But if there really is no other exception and they are advising them to seperate that is certainly strange… can you site a specific example of someone you know or knew who was adivsed to leave without biblical support (who wasn't being severely abused or something because I think that that is generally an exception because I genrally believe that can be defended or atleast forgiven.
Sueno Maruyama wrote:
I know Ahn played around with other women a lot, and may have had children with more than one, but was he divorced at one time? I know Zhang the Mommy was divorced but I wasn't aware that Ahn was …..
According to the NCPCOG, where one of Ahn's sons is still a member today, Ahn never divorced his only legal wife HwangWonSon.
NCPCOG may be incorrect, they do have motive to make ZGJ look like a liar as best they can. They could also be incorect. Many possiblities behind what they say. Further was she still alive Passover 1984? That certainly would resolve that issue pretty easily. There certainly are photographs of ASH and ZGJ in wedding clothes. So the metaphorical wedding certainly happened if there was a divorce or not.
Joshua wrote:
This brings me back to whatever you do in your mind you have done in your body.
Yes I understand I just don't find the argument compelling, although I have been talking with Genny about some things and she has made some very good points. I understand how you believe that I just don't agree it applies here. I do not see a physical or sexual or anything relationship between ASH and ZGJ merely an act to reveal her. Besides there must be some distinction between spirit and flesh in deed otherwise we are all guilty of incest because no mater if you believe in fallen angels and all of that we are still all God's children and some of us have sex with others of us but that is not sin (usually).
I have to ask God daily for forgiveness for some of the things I think. Many times I have to remind myself that I don't hate people but I do hate the sin. Often I will see a beautiful woman and if only for a moment I think of her inappropriately I have to ask forgiveness. The Christian life is not an easy one but it is worthwhile especially in the long run.
That is a very good statement I think.
Joshua wrote:
This brings me back to whatever you do in your mind you have done in your body.
Yes I understand I just don't find the argument compelling, although I have been talking with Genny about some things and she has made some very good points. I understand how you believe that I just don't agree it applies here. I do not see a physical or sexual or anything relationship between ASH and ZGJ merely an act to reveal her. Besides there must be some distinction between spirit and flesh in deed otherwise we are all guilty of incest because no mater if you believe in fallen angels and all of that we are still all God's children and some of us have sex with others of us but that is not sin (usually).
I have to ask God daily for forgiveness for some of the things I think. Many times I have to remind myself that I don't hate people but I do hate the sin. Often I will see a beautiful woman and if only for a moment I think of her inappropriately I have to ask forgiveness. The Christian life is not an easy one but it is worthwhile especially in the long run.
That is a very good statement I think.
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