Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of members kept the passover on the wrong day and month

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  • #71477

    UntouchableJ
    Participant

    Indeed

    #71478

    YAHWEHS CHILD
    Participant

    DESTROY  THE EXAMINERS

    #71479

    David
    Participant

    Mayor and Mike wrote:

    It's true. 

    UntouchableJ wrote:

    Indeed

    This is really a staggering FACT it should not be ignored and cannot be "explained away" to current members by the leaders 

    #71480

    CG2021
    Participant

    What if millions and millions of Jews are keeping the Passover on the wrong date? According to this Jewish professor, even among the Jewish community they do not seem to agree. I’m not saying the article below answers anything, but it just shows that even among the Jews there seems to be some sort of confusion.

    Why Pesach is now falling out of season?

    IS PESACH this year later than it should be, according to the dictates

    of the Torah?

    The straight answer is yes. But if April 22 — on which the first day

    falls — is considered late, think ahead to the year 2005, when the first

    day will fall on April 24. Indeed, in some years — 1929, 1948 and 1967,

    for example — Pesach began on April 25.

    To understand why it is biblically inappropriate for the festival to

    fall so late in the year, one has to consider the conditions governing

    its date.

    The Torah specifies two criteria. “The festival of matzot,” it says in

    Exodus 34:18, “shall be kept… at the appointed time in the month of

    Aviv.” In Leviticus 22:6, the “appointed time” is given as the 15th of

    the month.

    Aviv means spring, so it is necessary to determine what is meant by the

    first month of spring. The first month is required on the principle that

    a mitzvah should be performed as soon as possible.

    Although the Jewish festivals are placed in specific lunar months, the

    tekufot, or seasons, are governed by the solar calendar. The lunar month

    which is designated as Aviv is dependent on a civil date.

    It is generally accepted that the first day of spring in the northern

    hemisphere is when the length of the day — which has been increasing

    steadily since December 21 — equals the length of the night. This occurs

    on March 21 in a normal civil year, and March 22 in a leap year.

    How does one know which lunar month includes the first day of spring? In

    the Talmud (Sanhedrin 13b), Rabbi Samuel, the son of Rabbi Isaac, states

    that the first day of spring should occur in the lunar month while the

    moon is still waxing.

    The moon grows from new to full in the first 14.5 days of the month. If

    a Rosh Chodesh (new moon) occurs at any time between the sixth and the

    20th of March, then on the 21st the moon will still be waxing and that

    month is designated as Aviv. If this is not the case, the next lunar

    month is chosen.

    The earliest date that Pesach can occur is March 21, and the latest it

    should occur is April 20. Yet an examination of the calendar from 1920

    to 2019 shows the earliest date to be March 26.

    Instead of the festival falling between March 21 and April 20, this

    century has seen the first day being celebrated at some date between

    March 26 and April 25.

    Future calendars reveal a gra-dual shift of Pesach — and, consequently,

    of the other festivals — to progressively later dates. In the century

    from 2950 to 3050, the first day of Pesach will be found to fall between

    March 31 and April 30. What is happening? And, more importantly, is it

    possible to rectify the situation?

    The origin of this glitch lies in the fixed Jewish calendar that has

    been in use for the past 1,650 years. The calendar attempts to correlate

    the solar year — the time the earth takes to go round the sun — with the

    lunar month, during which the moon circles the earth.

    The year determines the seasons, while the months — in their appropriate

    seasons — determine the festivals.

    The present fixed calendar is based on the premise that 19 solar years

    are exactly equal to 235 lunar months.

    Dividing 19 into 235 gives 12, with seven remaining. Thus, in every

    19-year cycle, seven years acquire an extra month, which is why we have

    Jewish leap years every 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th year of

    the cycle.

    The 19-year Metonic cycle is named after the Greek astronomer, Meton,

    who devised it in around 430 BCE. It was well known to the rabbis of the

    Talmud.

    When, in 350 CE, the Roman authorities limited the authority of the Nasi

    — the spiritual leader — in Eretz Yisrael, regarding the proclamation of

    Rosh Chodesh, Hillel II, the then Nasi, instituted the present fixed

    calendar, based on the Metonic cycle.

    Although it was remarkably accurate for its time, it is not exact. The

    235 lunar months exceed the 19 solar years by a little more than two

    hours. Spread over 1,000 years, this totals some 4.5 days.

    One thousand years ago, the first day of Pesach would have fallen, on

    average, four or five days earlier in the year than now, in the correct

    solar time span as dictated by the Torah.

    Is it possible to remedy the present situation, and to halt the gradual

    shift of Pesach?

    In his book, “Rabbinical Mathematics and Astronomy,” Dr W. M. Feldman

    suggests a new basis for a fixed Jewish calendar.

    He demonstrates that if, in a cycle of 334 years, 123 of them were leap

    years, the differential between the Jewish and the civil calendar would

    amount to no more than 39 minutes.

    It would take 12,500 years to accumulate a one-day discrepancy, instead

    of the 230 years it takes under the present system.

    Feldman proposes constituting the 334-year major cycle as a series of

    19-year minor cycles, with the odd 11 years forming the beginning of the

    next major cycle.

    If Feldman’s 334-year cycle had been employed over the past 1,650 years,

    instead of the present 19-year cycle, there would have been one less

    leap month.

    To make the festivals less movable in the future, and to accord more

    accurately with the requirement for Pesach to fall in the month of Aviv,

    one designated leap year would have to lose that status.

    The next most suitable year for this purpose would seem to be 2005

    (5765). By making it a regular year instead of a leap year, Pesach would

    commence on Saturday, March 26, instead of Sunday, April 24.

    The year 5765 would be the 89th year of a 334-year cycle, the 13th year

    of the fifth 19-year cycle within the larger cycle.

    From this basis, future dates could be computed, demonstrating that

    Pesach would be confined to its designated Torah place for the

    foreseeable future.

    The year 2005 is sufficiently far ahead to enable one to compute, and

    adjust to, the new system. Even the most forward-looking parents will

    not yet have booked their sons’ barmitzvahs!

    Dr JOHN ZUCKER


    Dr Zucker is a research fellow in physics at King’s College, London

    University.

    From the Jewish Chronicle

    11/4/97

    #71481

    UntouchableJ
    Participant

    All things in perspective.

    #71482

    Mayor and Mike
    Participant

    And what if millions upon millions upon millions of westerners are keeping christmas on the wrong date. And what if the Ukrainians have the right date? 🙂

    #71483

    Mayor and Mike
    Participant

    Thanks for the article CG2021, I found it interesting and helpful. I suppose I have been quick to judge and motivated by the threats we've recieved on this site to speak out about this.

    The title of this topic is my opinion and I haven't done much research into it. 2 groups I know of are celebrating the pa-ssover on the 14th day of Nisan according to the Hebrew bible. They are the wmscog and the nation of Israel. And we know that the 14th of Nisan occurs once a year. Since both groups are celebrating pa-ssover in different months, one group is right and one group is in error. Personally I'm putting my faith in the nation and culture of Israel. Pa-ssover is their festival. That is my argument. 

    #71484

    Brian Taylor
    Participant

    Bam!

    #71485

    genny
    Participant

    And remember, using the wmscog's own standard, setting their Passover as month 1, they have problems counting to get the 7th month feasts right.  That is more telling to me, personally.

    #71486

    CG2021
    Participant

    Mayor and Mike the article I shared was not about the WMSCOG. It was to show that the Culture and nation of Israel, in which you are putting your faith, is confused about their own Passover.

    #71487

    CG2021
    Participant

    Genny this problem of the 7th month feast. Does it happen every year?

    #71488

    Mayor and Mike
    Participant

    Okay, lets focus on Israel. There will always be different groups, ideas, beliefs that don't agree, especially since the God of Israel gave his people singleness of heart and action.

    Its seems that a few of them wish to establish a fixed calendar that is governed by the sun. That could be a problem. But the lunar calendar is simple when you follow the rules. The seasons don't always arrive at a fixed time either. And if you don't observe a lunar leap year you'll be celebrating passover at Christmas.

    If you celebrate the passover on March 22 at the spring equinox, it doesn't necessarily mean it's spring time. My grass is still brown. 🙁  

    #71489

    UntouchableJ
    Participant

    @CG2021 Do you believe the COG got this years date right?

    #71490

    CG2021
    Participant

    UntouchableJ I think the following question is a little more appropriate: who determines what the right dates are?

    #71491

    MountainMom
    Participant

    CG2021 wrote:

    UntouchableJ I think the following question is a little more appropriate: who determines what the right dates are?

     No, I think Untouchable's question was entirely appropriate.  Is it possible to answer it with a yes or no?  Why not?

    #71492

    genny
    Participant

    CG2021 wrote:

    Genny this problem of the 7th month feast. Does it happen every year?

    Not every year.  With the records available online, it has happened in 2005, 2008, 2010, and 2013.

    #71493

    Mayor and Mike
    Participant

    I like CG2021 question. Who determines the dates, and who should detemine the dates? If the nations want to keep the festivals, we can't all pick and choose what we want to do, there has to be one person, authority, or priesthood who we should follow.

    #71494

    CG2021
    Participant

    Genny so what about 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011 and 2012. Did they get the dates right those years?

    #71495

    genny
    Participant

    CG2021 wrote:

    Genny so what about 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011 and 2012. Did they get the dates right those years?

    I will not quibble about being a day off, as maybe they counted the new moon from a different time zone.  But in regards to counting 7 months from the Passover as the first month, they counted months correctly in

    2003, 2004, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015

    There was no online record for 2006, so I can't comment either way on that, nor for previous to 2002, as the record starts in 2003.

    The incorrect years were 2005, 2008, 2010, 2013.

    That's 4 of 12 recorded years, or 1/3.

    #71496

    CG2021
    Participant

    I see. Is there a reason why the dates are so random? And How come they don’t commit the same mistake every year?

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