- Topic
When I was a member I remember feeling like my faith was constantly being tested by the group. By this I mean that I often felt as though I had to choose between the WMSCOG and my family (or my "physical family" as I was enouraged to call it back then). I remember that the WMSCOG claimed that Thanksgiving was a pagan holiday. They would instead replace the holiday with a "prayer service" in the church. During one of the services, the pastor explained that the meal that my family ate on Thanksgiving was "food sacrificed to idols" since there would be a prayer of thanks said over the meal to "a different Jesus". Recently I decided to look at his claims a little bit more closely.
What does it mean to sacrifice food to idols? In the Old Testament, animals were killed and burned as part of a religious ceremony and offered to God at the altar by the high priest. I have never seen my family go out and kill a turkey and shed its blood as part of a religious ceremony on Thanksgiving (or any other day for that matter). So why would the WMSCOG consider Thanksgiving dinner to be a sacrifice to an idol? Is it just because my family prays over the food before we eat it? We do that every day. Why would this meal be different? It isn't.
But it seemed to me that the WMSCOG wanted me to choose between spending time with my family and spending time with them. Thanksgiving was painted as evil, therefore there was no other choice but to spend it with other members of the organization. I remember choosing to spend time with my family despite their claims and being treated like a lesser being for it. When I got together with my family on Thanksgiving, I was considered to have celebrated the so called pagan holiday. Aren't WMSCOG members "celebrating" the holiday as well when they get together for the prayer service? The WMSCOG doesn't typically hold prayer services on Thursdays, so how would getting together with other members on that day have been any different than what I did with my family? It wouldn't have.
For those readers that are not aware, the WMSCOG replaces Christmas and New Year's Eve with a prayer service as well. So for those of you that have a family member in the WMSCOG, do not be surprised if you don't see them during these holidays either. As you can see here, WMSCOG members deny the organization's efforts to separate members from their families while at the same time attempting to justify their actions by taking Scripture out of context. I sympathize with you all as I have experienced, and will continue to experience this holiday season, similar heartache because of my family member's choice to spend all of their time recruiting for the WMSCOG.
Had the Thanksgiving bomb dropped on me tonight. This just gets worse and worse…
Are you unwilling to spend time with your family outside of your holidays? If so that puts the burden entirely upon you because it shows you don't want to be with family but celebrate a holiday.
shimon wrote:
Are you unwilling to spend time with your family outside of your holidays? If so that puts the burden entirely upon you because it shows you don't want to be with family but celebrate a holiday.
i think you are missing the point. you seem to be justifying the members no longer attending holidays with their families, which is a time-honored tradition in many homes. your response shows a lack of concern for those families.
Following pharisees was a timehonored tradition too.
Another lame argument. I guess people that love you should not celebrate your birthday on your birthday unless they want to celebrate it every other day too.
Nope many not in wmscog are against, Christmas and Easter too their families don’t get heart attacks over it in fact my family stopped for years before I entered wmscog then that year they get mad for not keeping it when for,a long time they didn’t either.
shimon wrote:
Are you unwilling to spend time with your family outside of your holidays? If so that puts the burden entirely upon you because it shows you don't want to be with family but celebrate a holiday.
When families live far apart, they gather together at holiday times (especially good time to gather since you get extra days off work). If you've got one person who does not want to be there, even when the location is convenient for them and other members of the family have traveled far to get there… well can you see how difficult that would be?
For us it has nothing to do with being 'unwilling' to spend time with each other outside of holidays. We can't just travel that far whenever we want.
To give my sister credit, she has spent at least a little time with us when we travel that way for holidays, but not as much as we'd wish. And when we get the opportunity to see her so rarely, you'd hope she wouldn't spend her entire Saturday at church. I recall her coming to see us one Thanksgiving weekend and this is how it went:
Thursday: arrived halfway through the day, visited with us the rest of the day at home
Friday: went to see local friends and spend time with other people, gone from morning until night
Saturday: spent the entire day at church, morning until night. (I went with her just to be able to spend time with her.) Then she left. I would have skipped Sunday school to have a nice breakfast with her, but no, she left too quick.
My kids were SO sad. After looking forward to a Thanksgiving weekend with their auntie, they only got to be around her for half a day.
We'd love to plan a vacation with her, but since it would be on a long weekend, what do you think are the chances she's miss a Saturday to do that, even though we'd be willing to miss a Sunday at our own church?
So you see some families' loved ones simply withdraw and spend less time with us, and the holidays make that even more noticeable.
<When families live far apart, they gather together at holiday times (especially good time to gather since you get extra days off work). >
Never heard of getting more than two days off for those holidays without getting it specially off in which case you should have it easier to get off when people are not competing for the time off.
<If you've got one person who does not want to be there, even when the location is convenient for them and other members of the family have traveled far to get there… well can you see how difficult that would be?>
Yes but that doesn’t make it right life is inconveniences.
<For us it has nothing to do with being 'unwilling' to spend time with each other outside of holidays. We can't just travel that far whenever we want.>
I couldn’t travel for holidays even if I wanted to either. I need to request time off any time of year and that is easier for non-holidays anyways
< I recall her coming to see us one Thanksgiving weekend and this is how it went:>
My kids were SO sad. After looking forward to a Thanksgiving weekend with their auntie, they only got to be around her for half a day.
Her way she went was on her not inline with church teaching or anything. Unless you do thanksgiving as a service (as some families do, mine never did) thanksgiving doesn’t matter. It really depends on how your family does it. I was actively encouraged to go so long as there was nothing religious behind it, not for preaching to my family but for the purpose of spending time with them.
<I would have skipped Sunday school to have a nice breakfast with her, but no, she left too quick.>
<We'd love to plan a vacation with her, but since it would be on a long weekend, what do you think are the chances she's miss a Saturday to do that, even though we'd be willing to miss a Sunday at our own church?>
Do you see Sunday as part of salvation? If you do you shouldn’t be skipping it and if you don’t it is a false comparison.
<So you see some families' loved ones simply withdraw and spend less time with us, and the holidays make that even more noticeable.>
My experience is the opposite, I rarely preach a word to family and don’t go to church as often as many people, even in other churches, but my family has still been pushing me away.
I know people have different experiences, and in our case it is actually easier to travel around holidays. We (me) are the ones who usually do the travelling for holidays to see our families who are fairly closely clustered to each other. It's our inconvenience, but we are willing to do it to spend time with our families. My sister doesn't have to take any extra time off to travel to see us on those days, she just has to show up at the gathering place. Sometimes she does, and sometimes she does not.
you said, "Her way she went was on her not inline with church teaching or anything."
Doesn't the church teach that she has to keep the entire Sabbath holy if she wants salvation? Isn't that why she spent her entire Saturday there instead of with the family? Is there another reason she couldn't have just gone to one service and returned to visit with us? It's not like she had teaching or cleaning duties or anything like that to make her obligated to stay there.
you said, "Do you see Sunday as part of salvation? If you do you shouldn’t be skipping it and if you don’t it is a false comparison."
Yes, this is part of the problem. Sunday is important to me and I prefer to go and meet with my church family. It's my priority on Sundays, but if I do not go one week, it's not going to cost me my salvation. Even though what I do is important, it's not what my salvation is based on. As you know, the wmscog teaches something very different, and if you'd like to talk more about that, we should start a new topic for it.
you said, "My experience is the opposite, I rarely preach a word to family and don’t go to church as often as many people, even in other churches, but my family has still been pushing me away."
I am truly sorry about that. From all the people I've talked with, this is a very hard situation for both sides, the members and the families. Have you ever been able to sit down and talk with your family about it so you can at least come to an understanding of each other's point of view? Are you able to see things from their point of view, even if you don't agree with them? I've tried that with my sister, but it's difficult because the wmscog teaches that anyone who disagrees with them is basically controlled by satan, so it's hard to be very open with her and actually have her listen.
you said, "I was actively encouraged to go so long as there was nothing religious behind it"
Now here's something that has bothered me a lot. (and when I say 'you' in this part, I mean members in general, not you personally) If you want your friends and family (and even strangers) to hear what you have to preach to them, and to visit the wmscog with you, and to go to services and studies at your church… why are you unwilling to hear their preaching, visit their services, and attend functions at their churches, even when it's something as simple as a wedding or funeral? Does your God not know your heart? Is attending a family member's funeral at a Christian church to help your family in their grief really that dangerous for your salvation?
genny wrote:
I know people have different experiences, and in our case it is actually easier to travel around holidays. We (me) are the ones who usually do the travelling for holidays to see our families who are fairly closely clustered to each other. It's our inconvenience, but we are willing to do it to spend time with our families. My sister doesn't have to take any extra time off to travel to see us on those days, she just has to show up at the gathering place. Sometimes she does, and sometimes she does not.
you said, "Her way she went was on her not inline with church teaching or anything."
Doesn't the church teach that she has to keep the entire Sabbath holy if she wants salvation? Isn't that why she spent her entire Saturday there instead of with the family? Is there another reason she couldn't have just gone to one service and returned to visit with us? It's not like she had teaching or cleaning duties or anything like that to make her obligated to stay there.
you said, "Do you see Sunday as part of salvation? If you do you shouldn’t be skipping it and if you don’t it is a false comparison."
Yes, this is part of the problem. Sunday is important to me and I prefer to go and meet with my church family. It's my priority on Sundays, but if I do not go one week, it's not going to cost me my salvation. Even though what I do is important, it's not what my salvation is based on. As you know, the wmscog teaches something very different, and if you'd like to talk more about that, we should start a new topic for it.
you said, "My experience is the opposite, I rarely preach a word to family and don’t go to church as often as many people, even in other churches, but my family has still been pushing me away."
I am truly sorry about that. From all the people I've talked with, this is a very hard situation for both sides, the members and the families. Have you ever been able to sit down and talk with your family about it so you can at least come to an understanding of each other's point of view? Are you able to see things from their point of view, even if you don't agree with them? I've tried that with my sister, but it's difficult because the wmscog teaches that anyone who disagrees with them is basically controlled by satan, so it's hard to be very open with her and actually have her listen.
you said, "I was actively encouraged to go so long as there was nothing religious behind it"
Now here's something that has bothered me a lot. (and when I say 'you' in this part, I mean members in general, not you personally) If you want your friends and family (and even strangers) to hear what you have to preach to them, and to visit the wmscog with you, and to go to services and studies at your church… why are you unwilling to hear their preaching, visit their services, and attend functions at their churches, even when it's something as simple as a wedding or funeral? Does your God not know your heart? Is attending a family member's funeral at a Christian church to help your family in their grief really that dangerous for your salvation?
I mean avoiding Thursday was not inline with Church teachings, it is only when you turn it into a religious ceremony, because many do which is the concern.
In a case like you only being able to get Holidays off: Say my family wanted to gather December 25th and not celebrate Christmas but take advantage of time off I would likely have no objection to it. Of course it would depend if December 25th were a Saturday and whatnot
Also, I will listen to what people have to say I sometimes it just sounds off the wall to me, but I try and occasionally I will see a point and often I will at least understand their line of thinking. I just don't want to participate in religious ceremonies. To me going to a baptist Church or a Jewish Synogogue (the two religions of my parents) is no different than going to a mosque or a buddhist temple, the faith is just different to me.
That said members of my specific Zion have gone to funerals since coming to WMSCOG, I've never needed to go to a funueral yet so I personally have not, I have not been invited to a wedding either none of my friends or family have gotten engaged recently.
I know some of what my church would call "Babylon Pastors" and I talk with them and we usually disagree but we are usually pleasent with eachother and I learn a lot about other beliefs that way and can understand where some of it comes from.
"I mean avoiding Thursday was not inline with Church teachings, it is only when you turn it into a religious ceremony, because many do which is the concern."
Thursday was the only day she spent with my family. (Half day, really, because she was travelling in the morning.)
"Also, I will listen to what people have to say I sometimes it just sounds off the wall to me, but I try and occasionally I will see a point and often I will at least understand their line of thinking. I just don't want to participate in religious ceremonies. To me going to a baptist Church or a Jewish Synogogue (the two religions of my parents) is no different than going to a mosque or a buddhist temple, the faith is just different to me."
I'm happy to listen and learn (without obligation to agree) too, but are you saying that you would not attend any other religions' service even as an observer? (I hadn't meant as a participant.)
"That said members of my specific Zion have gone to funerals since coming to WMSCOG, I've never needed to go to a funueral yet so I personally have not, I have not been invited to a wedding either none of my friends or family have gotten engaged recently."
So are you saying you would have no problem attending a wedding or funeral if it took place at a Christian church and was conducted by a Christian minister?
I didn’t get the traveling part I do think she shoulda spent Friday with you living physical family and showing it is right, even, when they disagree
When,i try to listen to sermons tHey usually grate me (why I looked elsewhere btw) so not sure I could do it .but weddings, funerals etci could do
99% of the time I won’t
Shimon,
I find it very interesting that you are so agreeable to spending time with your family. In regards to a wedding or a funeral, I would be interested to hear what your deacon would advise you to do when one comes up. I highly doubt that you will be encouraged to go. I remember an entire service being dedicated to discouraging the members from attending any funerals. And going into any other church was strictly prohibited. I was told that if I entered ANY other non-WMS church, that Satan would take my soul and I would lose my salvation.
When I was a member I wasn't literally told not to spend time with my family. I was just told that any time spent away from the WMS was a waste of the little time we had left on earth. The members would keep saying that "father is coming soon", thereby creating this sense of urgency. So you can see how it would be the same thing. At the time I didn't see the subtle manipulation I feel I was being subjected to. It's amazing how I was able to see it after I left and had a chance to sleep, eat at normal times, and actually think about what I was doing. When I was a member, I felt so sleep deprived. I was just going through the motions every day just like a robot.
That being said, have you ever had any doubts about anything? Have you ever thought that something just didn't add up? Did you ever observe any of the members behaving in a way that doesn't really mesh with what they preached?
Other members of my zion have done without discouragement from our deacon.
As for your question, no more than you’d expecfrom any imperfect being
Shimon, please open up and truly answer Emily's questions.
shimon wrote:
Other members of my zion have done without discouragement from our deacon.
As for your question, no more than you'd expecfrom any imperfect being
What does this mean? This is your life and an opportunity that you have to show us what's real. Please take it.
What is unclear
What's clear is your lack of responce. What's unclear is what you think about things. So far there has been a lot of what the group says about stuff. Obviously there are problems. What is your view of the facts and where are you getting your research?
Not sure what research has to.do with personal experiencE
Have you looked into any of the things that have given you questions? Have you only taken what has been told to you as the truth? In your personal experiences have you gone outside of the group to see if what they have said is the truth? Where is you research?
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