- Topic
The reason I say the real question is " Did He bring back the Passover?" is because the Passover is the true sign to recognize God in Spirit and God in the Flesh. All through out the Old testament and the New Testament. So if someone restored the Passover, correctly, according to the Bible's regulation, before Christ Ahnsahnghong, then they would be the christ.
I will make one thing very clear. Herbert Armstrong established the World Wide Church of God in the Early 20th century. That church claims they keep the Passover. If their Passover is correct, then Herbert Armstrong was the Christ. However, there are alot of inconsistencies w/prophecy from that church. First of all, they believe in sunset theory. According to the Sunset Set Doctrine, the Passover cant be kept because, the appointed time of the Passover is 1st month 14th day at twilight (when the sun goes down Deut 16:5)so since they believe that the day begins at sunset, to them, when the sun goes down is no longer 1st month 14th day at twilight, it becomes 1st month 15th day.
2nd thing is Herbert Armstrong didn't come from a country that is EAST of Patmos Island. According to Revelation 1:9, Apostle John was on Patmos Island when he wrote revelation. And when he saw Christ coming w/the Seal of God, he saw him coming from the East.(Revelation 7:1-3) So he saw Christ coming from a country that is east of Patmos Island. So the fact that Herbert Armstrong didnt come from the east, but from America, which is west, shows he is not the christ. And if he isnt the christ, that means the Passover he taught was wrong. It is the same with all these churches that claim they are the true church. If Jehovahs Witnesses are the true church then Charles Russell is the Christ. Follow him. If SDA is the true church, then Ellen G. White is the christ. Follow her.. etc.
Nobody can prove that Christ Ahnsahnghong didn't do what the Bible teaches "ONLY GOD CAN DO" there for he is the Christ.
I only ask one thing. Please come w/Biblical or tangable proof. And stick to the topic. You guys are very angry, its not even comical, it's sad. Are you trying to pick and point at WMSCOG or are you trying to prove Christ Ahnsahnghong isnt the 2nd coming Christ? This will end all discussion. someone PLEASE prove that Christ Ahnsahnghong didn't restore THE PASSOVER, CORRECTLY, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE'S REGULATION. If you prove that, then you prove WMSCOG is a false church following a false Christ. End of story.
Yes, I did a one on one on that with the big guys(literally leaders). Do you agree with their explanation. I mean I studied with male missionaries and deacons and pastors, yet, I still couldn’t catch on.
Since I left I haven’t really given their studies too much thought/efforts. I studied hard & a lot while I was a member so as a part of reclaiming my being I removed all of my WMSCOG books, bible study notes & all other related materials from my bookshelf. It was almost 1 month before I removed my bible from my purse. I try not to participate in the dialogs debating WMSCOG doctrine because I’m not ready yet. My natural instinct is to protest on behalf of WMSCOG with all of the “countermeasure” info they taught me. I no longer wish to defend their doctrine because they lied to me. I try to stay neutral or just state what I was taught by WMSCOG. At this point I don’t have an opinion about their doctrine other than to say I know there is some truth mixed in with the falsehood. I just don’t have the energy to weed through their crap at this time. I just want to focus on living!
If you don’t mind my asking, what are some of their accurate and truth preaching. I too feel it is truth mixed with lies. For example, Gal 4:26. And Zhang. Devout believer in God. Focus on God. Things like that. Even Sabbath.
The only piece of truth I agree with is Sabbath. I feel like Passover possibly but not their way! Their way is eating bread & wine sacrificed to an idol (Zhang). I definitely want to focus on making up for the lost years before I delve into their doctrine.
Disturbed is right rabbinical (pharisee) jews will not say the name of God and some won’t write God but Gd or G-d.
Some won’t say elohim but say elokim
its all a way to keep the third commandment (i think it breaks it myself )
Thank you Simon for your response. I can’t take credit for my answer. They teach that at WMSCOG. I wasn’t sure if it was correct or not.
Occasionally they get things vaguely right. LOL
but karaite jews. Say yehovah and god etc
Up until yesterday, I believed the Feasts and Sabbath were good. I don't know if how they keep it is accurate but it says a lasting ordinance so it must mean the Feasts should still be kept until God says otherwise. I agree with Mother's Teachings though I'd rather not call them that.
Kind of like if I tell my daughter today don't write on the walls, that means she shouldn't write on the walls until I say it's ok to write on the walls. If I never say anything more about writing on the walls then my previous command holds firm. Pastor asked me if I kept Sabbath. I told him that I believe the Sabbath is good. I don't keep Sabbath in Zion, obviously, but I also don't keep Sunday worship..
I've been invited and only went to a Sunday service once since leaving. I felt like I was betraying God.
I want to bump up this thread and respond to the thread starting post because of all that 144000 is accusing us of. Let us see how they can defend their foundation teaching.
The Unknown wrote:
The reason I say the real question is " Did He bring back the Passover?" is because the Passover is the true sign to recognize God in Spirit and God in the Flesh. All through out the Old testament and the New Testament. So if someone restored the Passover, correctly, according to the Bible's regulation, before Christ Ahnsahnghong, then they would be the christ.
This is wrong on several counts.
1. The most fundamental sign of the old covenant is not the passover but circumcision. Every thing else of the covenant flow from circumcision. The bible tells us that those who were not circumcised were forbidden from participating in the passover.
2. The bible regulation requires circumcision as a prerequisite for the passover. Here it is.
Ex 12:43-49 – 43 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “These are the regulations for the Passover meal: “No foreigner may eat it. 44 Any slave you have bought may eat it after you have circumcised him, 45 but a temporary resident or a hired worker may not eat it.
46 “It must be eaten inside the house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones. 47 The whole community of Israel must celebrate it.
48 “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it. 49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”
3. Where does the bible say that only God can restore the passover?
The Unknown wrote:
I will make one thing very clear. Herbert Armstrong established the World Wide Church of God in the Early 20th century. That church claims they keep the Passover. If their Passover is correct, then Herbert Armstrong was the Christ. However, there are alot of inconsistencies w/prophecy from that church. First of all, they believe in sunset theory. According to the Sunset Set Doctrine, the Passover cant be kept because, the appointed time of the Passover is 1st month 14th day at twilight (when the sun goes down Deut 16:5)so since they believe that the day begins at sunset, to them, when the sun goes down is no longer 1st month 14th day at twilight, it becomes 1st month 15th day.
It was the sunset theory during the time of Jesus and continues with the Jews to this day. So tell us Jesus was also not God because he didn't keep passover like you say it should be.
Deut 16:5 tells about the place and not the time. It was to be in a specific place, not in Korea. It was the SACRIFICE of the passover, the killing of the lamb. The time is in verse 6. Now you might interpret this time in any way you choose but it doesn't correspond with what the Jews did and certain of them still do. It was the time that was adopted during Jesus' day. So again Jesus did not keep the passover like the way you insist it should be kept.
The Unknown wrote:
2nd thing is Herbert Armstrong didn't come from a country that is EAST of Patmos Island. According to Revelation 1:9, Apostle John was on Patmos Island when he wrote revelation. And when he saw Christ coming w/the Seal of God, he saw him coming from the East.(Revelation 7:1-3) So he saw Christ coming from a country that is east of Patmos Island. So the fact that Herbert Armstrong didnt come from the east, but from America, which is west, shows he is not the christ. And if he isnt the christ, that means the Passover he taught was wrong. It is the same with all these churches that claim they are the true church. If Jehovahs Witnesses are the true church then Charles Russell is the Christ. Follow him. If SDA is the true church, then Ellen G. White is the christ. Follow her.. etc.
You guys specify scripture verse and want us to just accept your mention but actually reading it in its context reveals a lot. So I looked at what Rev 7 actually says. Verse 2 says – Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God.
It looks like it is proving your point. However, we see that it does not say he is God, nor does it say he opens the seal. That comes very much later. As the narrative flows down after verse 3 and reaches verse 9, what do we see? Oh the multitude is standing before the lamb. Ah, so it seems the angel, who came up BTW and not down, is not actually the lamb. Is anyone but the wmscog surprised? I think not. So Rev 7 is clear that the angel with the seal is not God. Besides, there are a thousand cults from the East all claiming to be the second coming.
The Unknown wrote:
Nobody can prove that Christ Ahnsahnghong didn't do what the Bible teaches "ONLY GOD CAN DO" there for he is the Christ.
Just done that above.
The Unknown wrote:
I only ask one thing. Please come w/Biblical or tangable proof. And stick to the topic. You guys are very angry, its not even comical, it's sad. Are you trying to pick and point at WMSCOG or are you trying to prove Christ Ahnsahnghong isnt the 2nd coming Christ? This will end all discussion. someone PLEASE prove that Christ Ahnsahnghong didn't restore THE PASSOVER, CORRECTLY, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE'S REGULATION. If you prove that, then you prove WMSCOG is a false church following a false Christ. End of story.
I have given biblical proof above. Let us all stick to the topic. We are not angry but sad about how the word of God has been distorted.
So I guess I have proved that the WMSCOG is a false church as per the conditions put forth by our friend The Unknown. Hope wmscog members visit this thread and see for themselves how flimsy their evidence is.
Different seals
Simon wrote:
Different seals
Correct. Different seal and different entity. My point? It is the angel who is from the East, not the lamb who has the seventh seal. They use the verse to show that the angel from the East proves that Ahn is 2CC.
But one person could have two types of seals (that person wouldn't be ahn of course)
Simon you should read Rev 7. From the flow of the narrative, it is pretty clear that the angel at the start is different from the Lamb later on.
Not really
To me, that is the most obvious understanding. This is specially so if you use more raw translations than the ones which add sub-headings to break up the text.
The thing is revelation is the most jumpy and unclear book in the Bible
^ Totally agree with you.
I am waiting for the wise men to refute what I have written in reply to The Unknown above.
emil wrote:
I want to bump up this thread and respond to the thread starting post because of all that 144000 is accusing us of. Let us see how they can defend their foundation teaching.
The Unknown wrote:
The reason I say the real question is " Did He bring back the Passover?" is because the Passover is the true sign to recognize God in Spirit and God in the Flesh. All through out the Old testament and the New Testament. So if someone restored the Passover, correctly, according to the Bible's regulation, before Christ Ahnsahnghong, then they would be the christ.
This is wrong on several counts.
1. The most fundamental sign of the old covenant is not the passover but circumcision. Every thing else of the covenant flow from circumcision. The bible tells us that those who were not circumcised were forbidden from participating in the passover.
2. The bible regulation requires circumcision as a prerequisite for the passover. Here it is.
Ex 12:43-49 – 43 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “These are the regulations for the Passover meal: “No foreigner may eat it. 44 Any slave you have bought may eat it after you have circumcised him, 45 but a temporary resident or a hired worker may not eat it.
46 “It must be eaten inside the house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones. 47 The whole community of Israel must celebrate it.
48 “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it. 49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”
3. Where does the bible say that only God can restore the passover?
The Unknown wrote:
I will make one thing very clear. Herbert Armstrong established the World Wide Church of God in the Early 20th century. That church claims they keep the Passover. If their Passover is correct, then Herbert Armstrong was the Christ. However, there are alot of inconsistencies w/prophecy from that church. First of all, they believe in sunset theory. According to the Sunset Set Doctrine, the Passover cant be kept because, the appointed time of the Passover is 1st month 14th day at twilight (when the sun goes down Deut 16:5)so since they believe that the day begins at sunset, to them, when the sun goes down is no longer 1st month 14th day at twilight, it becomes 1st month 15th day.
It was the sunset theory during the time of Jesus and continues with the Jews to this day. So tell us Jesus was also not God because he didn't keep passover like you say it should be.
Deut 16:5 tells about the place and not the time. It was to be in a specific place, not in Korea. It was the SACRIFICE of the passover, the killing of the lamb. The time is in verse 6. Now you might interpret this time in any way you choose but it doesn't correspond with what the Jews did and certain of them still do. It was the time that was adopted during Jesus' day. So again Jesus did not keep the passover like the way you insist it should be kept.
The Unknown wrote:
2nd thing is Herbert Armstrong didn't come from a country that is EAST of Patmos Island. According to Revelation 1:9, Apostle John was on Patmos Island when he wrote revelation. And when he saw Christ coming w/the Seal of God, he saw him coming from the East.(Revelation 7:1-3) So he saw Christ coming from a country that is east of Patmos Island. So the fact that Herbert Armstrong didnt come from the east, but from America, which is west, shows he is not the christ. And if he isnt the christ, that means the Passover he taught was wrong. It is the same with all these churches that claim they are the true church. If Jehovahs Witnesses are the true church then Charles Russell is the Christ. Follow him. If SDA is the true church, then Ellen G. White is the christ. Follow her.. etc.
You guys specify scripture verse and want us to just accept your mention but actually reading it in its context reveals a lot. So I looked at what Rev 7 actually says. Verse 2 says – Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God.
It looks like it is proving your point. However, we see that it does not say he is God, nor does it say he opens the seal. That comes very much later. As the narrative flows down after verse 3 and reaches verse 9, what do we see? Oh the multitude is standing before the lamb. Ah, so it seems the angel, who came up BTW and not down, is not actually the lamb. Is anyone but the wmscog surprised? I think not. So Rev 7 is clear that the angel with the seal is not God. Besides, there are a thousand cults from the East all claiming to be the second coming.
The Unknown wrote:
Nobody can prove that Christ Ahnsahnghong didn't do what the Bible teaches "ONLY GOD CAN DO" there for he is the Christ.
Just done that above.
The Unknown wrote:
I only ask one thing. Please come w/Biblical or tangable proof. And stick to the topic. You guys are very angry, its not even comical, it's sad. Are you trying to pick and point at WMSCOG or are you trying to prove Christ Ahnsahnghong isnt the 2nd coming Christ? This will end all discussion. someone PLEASE prove that Christ Ahnsahnghong didn't restore THE PASSOVER, CORRECTLY, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE'S REGULATION. If you prove that, then you prove WMSCOG is a false church following a false Christ. End of story.
I have given biblical proof above. Let us all stick to the topic. We are not angry but sad about how the word of God has been distorted.
So I guess I have proved that the WMSCOG is a false church as per the conditions put forth by our friend The Unknown. Hope wmscog members visit this thread and see for themselves how flimsy their evidence is.
I am still waiting for you 3 (wise?) men to respond to what I have said in the above post. This is your core belief. If you cannot refute this one, your whole premise comes tumbling down. Hope other visitors to this site will see that.
Hal wrote:
Scripture does not allude here to the substitution of a new law for the old one, but merely the making of a new covenant, a covenant independent of the law. Thus we find in the history of Phineas (Numbers 25:12), "Behold I give him my covenant of peace." The covenant thus made could not possibly mean the emission of a new law intended for Phineas alone. In Leviticus 26:42, we meet with a like mention of a covenant, "And I shall remember my covenant with Jacob, my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember," etc. From this mode of expression, nobody would venture to infer that the Almighty gave a special law to each of the patriarchs. Covenants also are made between man and man. Thus we find, in Genesis 21:32, "They two [Abraham and Abimelech] made a covenant with each other." Returning now to the true sense of the verse at the head of this chapter, we find that the Almighty has reserved for Israel the bestowal of a new covenant of protection when they shall be restored to their land, a covenant which, unlike the former one, will never be dissolved. On that account the prophecy continues (in Jeremiah 31:31 and following verses), that the future covenant will not be according [Jeremiah 31:32-33] "to the covenant I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which covenant they broke," etc. After this introduction, the prophet proceeds, "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel; I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and will be their God and they shall be my people." These quotations suffice to show, that the Almighty had not intended to issue a new law, but to impress His ancient divine law on their hearts, that it never should be forgotten throughout all time. The reader, on referring to chapter 19, will find that we demonstrated there the perpetuity of the divine law as it was given on Sinai; consequently the promulgation of a new law supplanting the former cannot possibly take place.
Rev 11:19 says within the temple you see the ark of the covenant. I believe this further proves that the Jerusalem temple represents the saints.
REAL ANSWER TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION OF THE THREAD: NO, he didn't. And, he's not christ.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.