- Topic
The reason I say the real question is " Did He bring back the Passover?" is because the Passover is the true sign to recognize God in Spirit and God in the Flesh. All through out the Old testament and the New Testament. So if someone restored the Passover, correctly, according to the Bible's regulation, before Christ Ahnsahnghong, then they would be the christ.
I will make one thing very clear. Herbert Armstrong established the World Wide Church of God in the Early 20th century. That church claims they keep the Passover. If their Passover is correct, then Herbert Armstrong was the Christ. However, there are alot of inconsistencies w/prophecy from that church. First of all, they believe in sunset theory. According to the Sunset Set Doctrine, the Passover cant be kept because, the appointed time of the Passover is 1st month 14th day at twilight (when the sun goes down Deut 16:5)so since they believe that the day begins at sunset, to them, when the sun goes down is no longer 1st month 14th day at twilight, it becomes 1st month 15th day.
2nd thing is Herbert Armstrong didn't come from a country that is EAST of Patmos Island. According to Revelation 1:9, Apostle John was on Patmos Island when he wrote revelation. And when he saw Christ coming w/the Seal of God, he saw him coming from the East.(Revelation 7:1-3) So he saw Christ coming from a country that is east of Patmos Island. So the fact that Herbert Armstrong didnt come from the east, but from America, which is west, shows he is not the christ. And if he isnt the christ, that means the Passover he taught was wrong. It is the same with all these churches that claim they are the true church. If Jehovahs Witnesses are the true church then Charles Russell is the Christ. Follow him. If SDA is the true church, then Ellen G. White is the christ. Follow her.. etc.
Nobody can prove that Christ Ahnsahnghong didn't do what the Bible teaches "ONLY GOD CAN DO" there for he is the Christ.
I only ask one thing. Please come w/Biblical or tangable proof. And stick to the topic. You guys are very angry, its not even comical, it's sad. Are you trying to pick and point at WMSCOG or are you trying to prove Christ Ahnsahnghong isnt the 2nd coming Christ? This will end all discussion. someone PLEASE prove that Christ Ahnsahnghong didn't restore THE PASSOVER, CORRECTLY, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE'S REGULATION. If you prove that, then you prove WMSCOG is a false church following a false Christ. End of story.
@The Unknown – Now that Hal has reproduced for us the Passover regulations as specified in the Bible, please show us how Ahn's restored passover resembled that which Hal has described.
The Unknown wrote:
The reason I say the real question is " Did He bring back the Passover?" is because the Passover is the true sign to recognize God in Spirit and God in the Flesh. All through out the Old testament and the New Testament. So if someone restored the Passover, correctly, according to the Bible's regulation, before Christ Ahnsahnghong, then they would be the christ.
Nobody can prove that Christ Ahnsahnghong didn't do what the Bible teaches "ONLY GOD CAN DO" there for he is the Christ.
I only ask one thing. Please come w/Biblical or tangable proof.
I take you back to the start of this thread. I say the real question is: "Was the Passover required to be restored?" Where in the bible is that?
Subsidiary questions taken from your post: Give us one tangible proof where the bible says the passover is the true sign to recognize God….
And off course don't forget to show us how ASH restored the passover in the biblical prescription that Hal has described.
"Was the Passover required to be restored?" Where in the bible is that?"
Passover is the sign of David which Jesus brings with him, in Passover is the seal of God. In the last days the 144000 must be sealed. Passover is also the sign of the restoration of Zion which is the place where God's feasts are kept.
Isaiah 25, Psalms 102, Psalm 87, Isaiah 51, and Amos 9 all of theese chapters, and many more, testify to the destruction of Zion and its restoration in the last days.
According to Isaiah 25, after the destruction of zion: There is a feast of God including aged wine which has the power to destroy death.
In the last days we follow the New Covenant. So what new covenant regulation of Jesus involves wine, and has the power to destroy death?
In fact there is only one feast ever provided by God to destroy death forever and grant eternal life, it is the Passover.
What new covenant regulations were highly controversial and eventually laws were passed to change its set time?
What did Quartodecimanism practice?
Which new covenenant regulation was argued about between Anicetus and Polycarp?
No matter how you slice or dice it, no matter how much you argue, no matter which different question you ask, the answers will always come back to Passover.
It will be said of Zion in the last days "here is our God". And now you can see us keeping the Passover. And now you hear us saying "here is our God".
Zion has been restored, the passover has destroyed death, and God appeared to do it. Nations stream to Zion to visit God for a period of time before the end and you see it before you now.
That is why the restoration of Passover is required.
The Passover is not the seal of God. The Holy Spirt residing in you is the seal of God.
That is objectively false, you have no life in you without the flesh and blood of Christ.
Name to me even a single verse in the bible that says “this is my flesh this is my blood” other than the Passover which is the night he was betrayed?
You need the flesh and blood of Jesus for the promise of eternal life and ressurection. You need the flesh and blood of Jesus or else you have no life in you.
Do not presume to eat the flesh and blood in an unworthy manner, you must follow Jesus example in keeping it, not make up your own fake traditions.
Is there anyone who does not delight in keeping the flesh and blood according to Jesus example?
Why yes there is, the agents of the evil one.
144000 wrote:
"Was the Passover required to be restored?" Where in the bible is that?"
Passover is the sign of David which Jesus brings with him, in Passover is the seal of God. In the last days the 144000 must be sealed. Passover is also the sign of the restoration of Zion which is the place where God's feasts are kept.
Isaiah 25, Psalms 102, Psalm 87, Isaiah 51, and Amos 9 all of theese chapters, and many more, testify to the destruction of Zion and its restoration in the last days.
According to Isaiah 25, after the destruction of zion: There is a feast of God including aged wine which has the power to destroy death.
In the last days we follow the New Covenant. So what new covenant regulation of Jesus involves wine, and has the power to destroy death?
In fact there is only one feast ever provided by God to destroy death forever and grant eternal life, it is the Passover.
What new covenant regulations were highly controversial and eventually laws were passed to change its set time?
What did Quartodecimanism practice?
Which new covenenant regulation was argued about between Anicetus and Polycarp?
No matter how you slice or dice it, no matter how much you argue, no matter which different question you ask, the answers will always come back to Passover.
It will be said of Zion in the last days "here is our God". And now you can see us keeping the Passover. And now you hear us saying "here is our God".
Zion has been restored, the passover has destroyed death, and God appeared to do it. Nations stream to Zion to visit God for a period of time before the end and you see it before you now.
That is why the restoration of Passover is required.
Very well
144000 wrote:
"Was the Passover required to be restored?" Where in the bible is that?"
Passover is the sign of David which Jesus brings with him, in Passover is the seal of God. In the last days the 144000 must be sealed.
Where in the bible does it say that Passover is the sign of David?
Hal, Simon, could you clarify if the Passover was even celebrated consistently during the time of David? I seem to remember it having been restored by later kings.
Passover is also the sign of the restoration of Zion which is the place where God's feasts are kept.
Isaiah 25, Psalms 102, Psalm 87, Isaiah 51, and Amos 9 all of theese chapters, and many more, testify to the destruction of Zion and its restoration in the last days.
According to Isaiah 25, after the destruction of zion: There is a feast of God including aged wine which has the power to destroy death.
I just read Isaiah 25. That is highly speculative. Not even a hint that it is the Passover. In fact it appears to be a new feast. You have to provide verses if you want to make your point. Dont just provide chapters.
In the last days we follow the New Covenant. So what new covenant regulation of Jesus involves wine, and has the power to destroy death?
In fact there is only one feast ever provided by God to destroy death forever and grant eternal life, it is the Passover.
Let us continue the above line of debate in the "Celebrating the Passover" thread where I have started this discussion already.
What new covenant regulations were highly controversial and eventually laws were passed to change its set time?
What did Quartodecimanism practice?
Which new covenenant regulation was argued about between Anicetus and Polycarp?
This is not about when the event was celebrated. It is about what is the event being celebrated. If you actually read about the discussion between Anicetus and Polycarp, you will see that both had a point to their argument and accepted each other's point amicably.
No matter how you slice or dice it, no matter how much you argue, no matter which different question you ask, the answers will always come back to Passover.
It will be said of Zion in the last days "here is our God". And now you can see us keeping the Passover. And now you hear us saying "here is our God".
Zion has been restored, the passover has destroyed death, and God appeared to do it. Nations stream to Zion to visit God for a period of time before the end and you see it before you now.
That is why the restoration of Passover is required.
As you can see, you have provided nothing substantial to show the PASSOVER was required to be restored. Just statements without strong scriptural or historical support.
144000 wrote:
That is objectively false, you have no life in you without the flesh and blood of Christ.
Name to me even a single verse in the bible that says "this is my flesh this is my blood" other than the Passover which is the night he was betrayed?
You need the flesh and blood of Jesus for the promise of eternal life and ressurection. You need the flesh and blood of Jesus or else you have no life in you.
Do not presume to eat the flesh and blood in an unworthy manner, you must follow Jesus example in keeping it, not make up your own fake traditions.
Is there anyone who does not delight in keeping the flesh and blood according to Jesus example?
Why yes there is, the agents of the evil one.
Lets discuss this in the "Celebrating the Passover" thread in the interest of keeping everything about the passover argument in one place.
Why do you want to separate when and how to keep the Passover of the New Covenant?
Don’t you understand it is “my faithful love promised to David”? The “eternal covenant”?
Proving that it was destroyed and that Zion was destroyed, is the exact prophecy which proves that the restoration of Passover is necessary, and in addition to being necessary is a sign of Christ.
You call me presumptuous, so why don’t you answer it then, if Isaiah 25 is talking about a NEW feast which can destroy death forever. Than what other feast of God is there that can destroy death?
There is only Passover.
Keeping the Passover of Jesus correctly is DIRECTLY related to the prophecy of restoring it.
144000 wrote:
Why do you want to separate when and how to keep the Passover of the New Covenant?
In the NT there are three significant parts to the events which you call Passover and I call Pasch. The first is the institution of the bread and wine, the second, the death of Jesus and finally, his resurrection. During apostolic times, the apostles themselves spread out far and wide. Peter and Paul, who were both in Rome, decided that the commemoration of these events must take into account the day of the week when they originally took place. Polycarp, who was taught by John, wanted to continue to use the Jewish calendar for the feast. This is in short. There is a lot more to that.
This is why there was a disagreement at first.
Don't you understand it is "my faithful love promised to David"? The "eternal covenant"?
Why not circumcision?
Proving that it was destroyed and that Zion was destroyed, is the exact prophecy which proves that the restoration of Passover is necessary, and in addition to being necessary is a sign of Christ.
When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE, it was the Jews who had been keeping the passover there. They have continued to keep the passover as in the OT. This has nothing to do with your argument.
You call me presumptuous, so why don't you answer it then, if Isaiah 25 is talking about a NEW feast which can destroy death forever. Than what other feast of God is there that can destroy death?
There is only Passover.
Keeping the Passover of Jesus correctly is DIRECTLY related to the prophecy of restoring it.
So you say.
There’s several eternal covenants
Emil
Different Gospels be eternally condemned, if they split up and their apprentices began to argue, then woe to them, only one gospel is true. Some say "I follow Paul" some say "I follow Peter" some say "I follow Jesus" but there is only one Gospel, different denominations literally be damned.
"the Jews who had been keeping the passover there. They have continued to keep the passover as in the OT. This has nothing to do with your argument."
Oh, so God's message for restoring Zion in the last days and having his law come out of it was for the Jews?
Because I'm pretty sure the Law was changed with the changing of the priesthood. And I'm pretty sure all "last day" prophecies concern Christians and the New Covenant, not Jews and the Old Covenant.
Get rid of the old yeast, emil.
And what about circumcision? Circumcision is not a truth that has been lost to Christians, nor one that has ever needed restoring in the last days. So Circumcision is not the answer to "rebuilding Zion".
But Passover is.
Simon:
Concerning Jesus there is only one eternal covenant in the New Covenant. The singular one and only Eternal Covenant of Christ is found in the book of Hebrews, and it is written that the Eternal Covenant is the one made by Jesus blood. What does the bible say the blood of the covenant is? The Passover is "my blood of the covenant poured out for you". By participating in the Passover feast we are given permission to share in the blood Christ shed for our salvation and recieve great blessings. We become one body in Christ through the Passover.
It is the one and only way to keep the greatest commandment, which is love, for only by becoming one body in Christ can we love each other as much as we love ourselves.
Even the greatest commandment cannot be kept in God's eyes without the Passover.
Every single verse points to it, there is no blessing or instruction that the Passover is not the key to. Even calculating other feast dates is based on keeping the Passover correctly.
No actually one *could* skip Passover and keep other feasts correctly.
Also this is about David not jesus (also as Jesus is God. ALL covenants pertain to him)
Simon
Actually the exact opposite happened in reality. People did start skipping the Passover. And then everyone forgot which day Ressurection was.
And then they had the whole easter controversy.
Another fact that points to Passover needing to be restored.
Unless you think that man-made laws about God are acceptable?
144000 wrote:
Emil
Different Gospels be eternally condemned, if they split up and their apprentices began to argue, then woe to them, only one gospel is true. Some say "I follow Paul" some say "I follow Peter" some say "I follow Jesus" but there is only one Gospel, different denominations literally be damned.
What different Gospels? Did I speak of different Gospels? I was refering to the way of calculating the date. The larger part of the church, under the guidance of Peter and Paul, adopted a method of calculation of the day independently of the Jewish calendar which itself had issues of accuracy, ironed out over a period of time. For that you need to study a bit of the history of the early church in the first century itself.
"the Jews who had been keeping the passover there. They have continued to keep the passover as in the OT. This has nothing to do with your argument."
Oh, so God's message for restoring Zion in the last days and having his law come out of it was for the Jews?
Because I'm pretty sure the Law was changed with the changing of the priesthood. And I'm pretty sure all "last day" prophecies concern Christians and the New Covenant, not Jews and the Old Covenant.
Get rid of the old yeast, emil.
You either don't understand what I am saying or you chose to sidestep. You are the one who said that the destruction of it (I assume you mean temple) and of Zion was the prophecy that the passover was to be restored. My point is that the destruction of the temple had no bearing on Christian worship by then. The destruction only impacted the Jewish celebration. Try to understand before refuting.
And what about circumcision? Circumcision is not a truth that has been lost to Christians, nor one that has ever needed restoring in the last days. So Circumcision is not the answer to "rebuilding Zion".
But Passover is.
On what do you base that? I should accept it only because you say so? You have yet to show me where the bible says the passover needed to be restored. Just going around in circles will not work. You talk about David and I mentioned circumcision because that was the absolute sign before Christ and still is for the Jews. Everything else, including passover was founded on circumcision. So just using some text and claiming it refers to passover will not work.
Simon:
Concerning Jesus there is only one eternal covenant in the New Covenant. The singular one and only Eternal Covenant of Christ is found in the book of Hebrews, and it is written that the Eternal Covenant is the one made by Jesus blood. What does the bible say the blood of the covenant is? The Passover is "my blood of the covenant poured out for you". By participating in the Passover feast we are given permission to share in the blood Christ shed for our salvation and recieve great blessings. We become one body in Christ through the Passover.
It is the one and only way to keep the greatest commandment, which is love, for only by becoming one body in Christ can we love each other as much as we love ourselves.
Even the greatest commandment cannot be kept in God's eyes without the Passover.
Every single verse points to it, there is no blessing or instruction that the Passover is not the key to. Even calculating other feast dates is based on keeping the Passover correctly.
Lots of extra biblical words and assumptions in all that you have written. I'll only discuss the first because the others all are basically the same exercise of extra biblical additions.
The Passover is "my blood of the covenant poured out for you".
You really ought to open your bible and check whether it really says the passover in that sentence.
You guys have fooled so many people into thinking that the significance of the last supper was the passover when it was absolutely not. Ultimately, whether it was the eve of the Passover sacrifice as seems obvious from John's gospel, or whether it was, as you guys claim, the passover seder itself, in which case Jesus was not the passover sacrifice, the occasion is far less important than the action, which was the offer of his body and blood. We call it the institution of the Eucharist. You guys wrongly call it the passover.
The feasts are relative to harvest and the moon
The Unknown wrote:
Storm,
Thank you very much for your question.
Just out of curiosity how did you get the year 1967? Did you hear that from someone?
Also, to answer your question, one would not have to visit/call/ask etc every church in the world to find out if they are keep/kept the Passover. Through many verses in the Bible, it is clear that the only one who can "restore/teach" the Passover CORRECTLY, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE'S REGULATION, is Christ Himself. So if one claims that they "restored the Passover" then they are claiming that they are Christ Himself. However, all these other churches that claim they keep the Passover correctly, testify that they themselves or the one who established their teaching isn't Christ. So that is the evidence that their "Passover" isn't correct.
However, Christ Ahnsahnghong "restored/taught" the Passover, correctly according to the Bible's regulation" and He testified that he is Christ Himself.
My error I meant to type 1964, or is it 1967? hmm..anyhow thanks for your answer, but by you just telling me this it does not help me much. Can you show me where to find the bible verses that say that only God himself can restore the passover. What are the bible regulations? By the way I believe in the passover 🙂
Two hal
What’s G-D? And why is it G-D?
Sarah2013…did you ever have to read the preface of the bible when studying either trinity or savior of each age? I forget which study exactly but WMSCOG explained from the preface about the Tetragrammaton YHWH. The savior’s name was considered too Holy to write or say. This is in place or they call Him “Adoni”. This was said about the Jews so I’m not sure how accurate the info is. Hopefully Hal or Simon will give the proper explanation.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.