Survey

  • Creator
    Topic
  • #7811
    jw03550
    Participant

    I have been thinking about doing a survey and sharing the results here.

    First, could we get 25 ex members at a minimum to complete one?

    Second, what we would do is measure different variables.  Ideas would be how much emphasis (for the person completing the survey) was placed on first commandment, second commandment, fragrance, talents, whatever.  what can be done with a study like this is determine what is significantly related to what.  meaning, if you have a buddy still in then even though your experiences are likely the same you may be wasting your time talking about one experience when you should be focusing on a different experience to help them see the light, so to speak. a survey can also bring to light differences for male/female.

    opinions and ideas on 1 and 2 if youre' interested. please

  • #68871

    MountainMom
    Participant

    JW I didn't sabotage anything. I just disagreed.  And I honestly think you are reinventing the wheel and it was going to cost you, in your estimate, 80-120 hours of your time doing something others have already covered. So, I feel like I actually helped you. 

    I get a different take on Hassan and other specialists.  I see that they have come to the same conclusions as several that you mention, and they have  decades of research and experience.  It isn't a bad thing that you know a lot of the same things they know.

     I don't think I used social pressure on you, either.  I am only one person with an opinion.  No one came on and said they were in total agreement with me and weren't going to do the survey as a result of anything I said.  I don't feel like I have that kind of influence. 

    If anyone wants to do your survey they can. 

    #68872

    jw03550
    Participant

    I'm sorry.  this has felt like an inquisition and it gets exhausting defending against things that don't exist.

    the difference with this survey idea is metaphorical to knowing that Coca-Cola is a sweetened and carbonated beverage and that it has a caramel color.  what a bona fide scientific approach does is determine who likes coke, when do they drink it, why did they cut back, and so on, and this kind of research includes determining what is significant from what is not significant.  In statistics, significance is a term that can be explained by googling or here:

    http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/statistically_significant.asp

    I've heard "you'll never find anything" more times in my lifetime than I can count

    major corporations are continually looking for the relationships that can be drivers for their brands.  small advantages over the competition are a big deal

    for the other interested posters, the survey will be conducted anonymously

    "verification" was previously used loosely because I'm a new user of this site and I could easily send out a link to the survey in a PM to a current member – and we have jibberish posts on the main page so we know that they come here.  "verification" was meant along the lines that if a username indicated that they were an ex-member and the long time users of this site knew that was bs then a heads up would be appreciated.  the survey results will do no good if someone gets the link and enters random answers.  if you look at the statistically significant page (above), what significnce tells us is the chance that the answers are random….that there is essentially no relationship between two variables.  we would want to ensure that only ex-members take the survey.  there is a lot of control that is essential when the scientific method is used.

    as for distribution of the survey write-up (will take a few days, after all surveys are in), any one from this site could set up a temporary email so as to remain anonymous and I would email it.

    again, Hassan is criticized by Cathleen Mann on Amazon, found here: http://www.amazon.com/review/R3TQKTH2WP3IET

    "In contrast, one of the defining characteristics of pseudoscience is an over reliance on such anecdotal evidence, rather than scientific study."

    scientific study is a disciplined activity, and this would be new and specific to this group.  typically it is not uncommon to think that we will find one thing (which is sometimes confirmed and sometimes not) but something always pops up that gives that ahhaha moment.

    its hard to explain other than there will be information that we do not currently have.  a scientific study via survey uncovers these things.

    i hope we can get 25 exs to participate

    #68873

    jw03550
    Participant

    I should probably give some examples to help out

    for starters, I have compiled a section on ostracization.  it would be insightful to know the real danger areas (possible that men are worse ostracizers than females, or vice-versa)and similarly the safer zones to play in so that we can limit the chances we get ostracized by our F&F.

    #68874

    jw03550
    Participant

    MountainMom wrote:

    but he hasn't ever given us his story. Tell us your story.

    i forgot to post earlier that I did that a week ago under the "I want everyone to chime in on this one thread" started by Brian Taylor.

    #68875

    David
    Participant

    @JW…let's start with the fact that we are a paranoid group by nature (at least now we are) and you call yourself JW.

    May I have a show of hands from everyone on this question? Do the initials JW make you immediately think of a cult?

    Thank you, you can all put your hands back down now.

    My guess is you are probably legit and want to do a survey for positive reasons. That said, you seem passionate about your work and frankly, very few people come on here and announce what they do for a living at least not as quickly as you did. So I would guess that you probably mentioned it in zion and now it's pretty easy for whoever follows this site for them to figure out who you are. Maybe you don't care if they know who you are? That's fine but then why not just use your real name like Brian does for instance.

    My point is, something is not quite right here, probably not heinous but still, not quite right.

    So I'm going to suggest that you put your survey together and then hold on to it for awhile. Keep contributing here so everyone gets to know you and then reintroduce the idea at a later date.

    Please keep in mind that secretly getting a persons thoughts and experiences to use against them or others is right out of the cult 101 handbook. I'm not saying that's your intention, I'm just saying, it could be. Also, your previous statement,"I'm better off donating my time to the pediatric aids patients downtown" sounded a "little culty" to me. Only certain people come on here and say, not so nice stuff like that. Just sayin and again, I'm not condeming you. I have held babies with aids and addictions at the clinic downtown though and it seems to help them so maybe you should give it a try

    That said, maybe you should give this survey a little time and I don't want to sound rude but maybe don't be quite so pushy, just let everybody get to know you better. Then maybe everyone will be more comfortable giving their personal thoughts and experiences to the survey. Don't forget alot of us have done that before and been burned by it….remember?

    Ps. Steve Hassan, Cathleen Mann and all those cult intervention "experts" know eachother personally quite well and it's a well known fact that none of them like eachother very much so I wouldn't take Cathleen manns criticism of Hassan's books very seriously. In fact some cults love to use her statements about him to discredit him. Hmmm, I guess you did say a bunch of "possible" culty stuff.

    Don't forget, I'm not condemning you or saying you can't be trusted, I'm just saying give it some time

    #68876

    MountainMom
    Participant

    JW:  I know how exhausting the struggle has been for you.  I have empathy for you.  I have empathy for the current members who are trapped in the wms as well.  I am hoping we are in this together.  Take David's advice.  Work on the survey, but hold on to it for a while.   There is something missing here, and untill it becomes more apparent to you, I doubt you will get the result you want.  I could tell you what it is, but I feel that you have not been open to my suggestions or opinions. 

    Also, you never said if you have posted here under another handle at some time.  It has been done before on this forum.  It isn't a crime.  I just want to know.  You don't have to say under what other names you have posted.  Just if you have or not.  You can PM me with that info, and I won't put it on the forum.  I wouldn't make it known one way or the other.  Simple question, simple answer. 

     

    #68877

    jw03550
    Participant

    David wrote:

    Ps. Steve Hassan, Cathleen Mann and all those cult intervention "experts" know eachother personally quite well and it's a well known fact that none of them like eachother very much so I wouldn't take Cathleen manns criticism of Hassan's books very seriously. In fact some cults love to use her statements about him to discredit him.

    Thanks for the newsflash.  The specific point made was to address a bona fide study to bring to light something no one has done before and most specifically to address how this group is different from others.

    To all> all "cults" are not the same.  this group can be rocky road flavor and the "cult experts" address ice cream, vanilla.

    MountainMom wrote:

    JW:  I know how exhausting the struggle has been for you.  I have empathy for you.  I have empathy for the current members who are trapped in the wms as well.  I am hoping we are in this together.  Take David's advice.  Work on the survey, but hold on to it for a while.   There is something missing here, and untill it becomes more apparent to you, I doubt you will get the result you want.  I could tell you what it is, but I feel that you have not been open to my suggestions or opinions. 

    Also, you never said if you have posted here under another handle at some time.  It has been done before on this forum.  It isn't a crime.  I just want to know.  You don't have to say under what other names you have posted.  Just if you have or not.  You can PM me with that info, and I won't put it on the forum.  I wouldn't make it known one way or the other.  Simple question, simple answer. 

    I have about had it with your inquisition.

    I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE

    get the point?

    David wrote:

    Please keep in mind that secretly getting a persons thoughts and experiences to use against them or others is right out of the cult 101 handbook.

    Who the f*** said anything about that?  Thanks for the disclaimer "I'm just saying, it could be".  Wake the f*** up, I put out my story and cried when I wrote it, which is on Brian's thread.  I've put out, time and time again and shared stuff that hurt me.

    BUT NOTHING IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU PEOPLE.  its always more more more.

    David wrote:Also, your previous statement,"I'm better off donating my time to the pediatric aids patients downtown" sounded a "little culty" to me. Only certain people come on here and say, not so nice stuff like that.

    read it again in context.  if the link to the survey gets out THEN THE WELL MEANING MEMBERS OF WMSCOG will ***every last minute of hard work up.  that statement IS NOT ABOUT EXMEMBERS.  IT IS ABOUT AN ENTIRE PROCESS BEING SABOTAGED.

    instead of something along the lines of "tell me about the process" I've been:

    accused of things I haven't done and am forced into the position of defending phantoms, which is impossible to do when people have already made up their minds about something.  talk about culty.

    Lastly, this site gives me the creeps.  You all may just as well be on the same side as WMSCOG. 

    This site is no longer about examining anything.  Its a crybaby forum.

    FACE IT.

    #68878

    Smurf
    Participant

    jw03550 wrote:

    Lastly, this site gives me the creeps.  You all may just as well be on the same side as WMSCOG. 

    This site is no longer about examining anything.  Its a crybaby forum.

    FACE IT.

    ๐Ÿ˜€ The credibility and usefulness of this forum has gone down the drain a long time ago. Anyone who wants to do something usually does it outside the forum. People don't even reply to your personal mesages here. I'm afraid you're on your own, jw ๐Ÿ˜‰

    #68879

    Brian Taylor
    Participant

    @mountain mom

    Here is what this peson said on the other thread about their disposition:

    <blockquote style=”margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 2.4em; padding: 0px 0px 0px 0.8em; quotes: none; border-left-width: 3px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); font-family: ‘Trebuchet MS’, ‘Lucida Grande’, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial; font-size: 14px; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”>

    <cite style=”margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-style: normal;”>Brian Taylor wrote:

     So, blah blah blah i'm rambling, let me get to the point. I really want to hear, whether you are a former member, a friend or a relative some one who is in the cult, What have you learned from your experience? How has it changed the way you view the world? ( if at all) how has it shaped your character? how has it changed you? I would really love to hear from anyone and everyone on this.

    friend

    and I want my friend back

    changed my world because I realized spiritual manipulation I was under more than one time in my past.  maybe wasnt on the far cult end of the spectrum but got taken advantage of and ripped off more times than I'm still willing to admit. so I lost money, time, and -stress-idk how a price tag gets put on that.

    This experience has brought me closer to God, which mainly was a result of this person's membership – I got curious and investigated about my 'wrong' church and it took a long time to see the contradictions in my situation but it seemed like we switched roles with my friend getting it on steriods so-to-speak. 

    We still talk but if you want the possibility of future interaction then you dont go challenging things you just take the time you're given and it makes you appreciate what you took for granted previously.  so there is good and bad that goes with membership in these groups.  I would say that, in general, there is an issue with separating friends & family, yes.  but I don't go saying that categorically the group does this because all they need is to point at so-and-so and ask if they cut off from their F&F because – if F&F were given the chance to speak – the F&F would say that time has certainly diminished (if not strictly cut off) but the definition on the other side can go 'see, John Doe says he just visited his family' and my friend doesnt get it and I cant challenge that presentation if I want to see him again.  (reduction in time spent and how its spent and what the topic of conversation will be and how you get treated if you challenge these groups)  just like who gets the laws written in this country (the lobbyist has the ear of the politician) and who gets awarded job bids (the salesperson needs to have the ear of the buyer to have that influence).  The circle of influence is just too strong to have any effect because they have the ear.  this phenomenon is nothing new.

    but man did I take things for granted before, so in a way this is a good experience – assuming he sees it and exits one

    #68880

    Brian Taylor
    Participant

    And to be honest,it still does not paint a clear picture about who this is as a person. It does not help us get to know this person any better.

    #68881

    MountainMom
    Participant

    jw03550 wrote:

    David wrote:

    Ps. Steve Hassan, Cathleen Mann and all those cult intervention "experts" know eachother personally quite well and it's a well known fact that none of them like eachother very much so I wouldn't take Cathleen manns criticism of Hassan's books very seriously. In fact some cults love to use her statements about him to discredit him.

    Thanks for the newsflash.  The specific point made was to address a bona fide study to bring to light something no one has done before and most specifically to address how this group is different from others.

    To all> all "cults" are not the same.  this group can be rocky road flavor and the "cult experts" address ice cream, vanilla.

    MountainMom wrote:

    JW:  I know how exhausting the struggle has been for you.  I have empathy for you.  I have empathy for the current members who are trapped in the wms as well.  I am hoping we are in this together.  Take David's advice.  Work on the survey, but hold on to it for a while.   There is something missing here, and untill it becomes more apparent to you, I doubt you will get the result you want.  I could tell you what it is, but I feel that you have not been open to my suggestions or opinions. 

    Also, you never said if you have posted here under another handle at some time.  It has been done before on this forum.  It isn't a crime.  I just want to know.  You don't have to say under what other names you have posted.  Just if you have or not.  You can PM me with that info, and I won't put it on the forum.  I wouldn't make it known one way or the other.  Simple question, simple answer. 

    I have about had it with your inquisition.

    I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE I AM NEW HERE

    get the point?

    David wrote:

    Please keep in mind that secretly getting a persons thoughts and experiences to use against them or others is right out of the cult 101 handbook.

    Who the f*** said anything about that?  Thanks for the disclaimer "I'm just saying, it could be".  Wake the f*** up, I put out my story and cried when I wrote it, which is on Brian's thread.  I've put out, time and time again and shared stuff that hurt me.

    BUT NOTHING IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU PEOPLE.  its always more more more.

    David wrote:Also, your previous statement,"I'm better off donating my time to the pediatric aids patients downtown" sounded a "little culty" to me. Only certain people come on here and say, not so nice stuff like that.

    read it again in context.  if the link to the survey gets out THEN THE WELL MEANING MEMBERS OF WMSCOG will ***every last minute of hard work up.  that statement IS NOT ABOUT EXMEMBERS.  IT IS ABOUT AN ENTIRE PROCESS BEING SABOTAGED.

    instead of something along the lines of "tell me about the process" I've been:

    accused of things I haven't done and am forced into the position of defending phantoms, which is impossible to do when people have already made up their minds about something.  talk about culty.

    Lastly, this site gives me the creeps.  You all may just as well be on the same side as WMSCOG. 

    This site is no longer about examining anything.  Its a crybaby forum.

    FACE IT.

     And there it is.  You really need to take a break from the forum, JW.  For your own sake. 

    #68882

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    The science behind coercive thought control is very well established, contrary to what JW states.  Hassan is a practitioner and does a good job, and the science behind the things that he and other counselors do to ease victims out of thought control groups is very well established.  Robert J Lifton and Margaret Singer are the easiest read on this subject and their volumes are full of scholarly studies and published articles you can refer to if you want to explore further.

    Mr. JW is a pop culture afficianado who reads headlines on the internet, flubs his dub daily, and thrives on Red Bull and Cheetos.  He has posted previously on this forum under other handles.  Under the influence of the carbs and caffeine his fingers fly faster on the keyboard than thought waves process in his brain. 

    I'm sure he inflicts other discussion forums with his invective.  That is usual operating procedure for these types.  He'll get bored and leave soon.  Best is to stop replying to him.  Adios, JW.  

    #68883

    Kai TIng
    Participant

    HH's post made me had a good laugh for some reason. Anyway back to the point. I second MountainMom's suggestion, that it is best for jw to take a break from the forum, for his own sake

    On the other hand I can understand where jw is coming from. People react to traumatic events differently, some deal with it very zealously and some become very passive and lost at what to do next. For me I became crazy on theology and hermeunitics when I first left the wmscog, and drowned myself in hours of "research". He is very passionate about doing something (ie the survey) because he want to help and make an impact.

    However I think the honest reply to you from many of us will be "been there, done that", and that we do not believe the survey will make a difference. But of course, jw you are free to believe otherwise and prove us wrong all you want. I will help you with it and support you in this.

    #68884

    jw03550
    Participant

    omfg

    with the same anecdotal evidence as Hassan uses, I will use here:

    sounds like some of you learned how to get people to conform when you were part of that group

    and you did it without examiniation of your own ideology

    that behavior was so sticky that some are still doing it

    but it appears that because there is more to a cult than conformity that this is an excuse for some, and also that one's own ideology and justifications blind us from realizing it.  which makes my point in the 'cult definition' thread about how superficial a simple categorical list defining a cult really is.  these groups differ and it should be about critical thinking along a line of red flags, but I'm beating a dead horse here, in a wrong thread, but I was outvoted in that thread, too.

    Heinrich Hochhalter wrote:

    He'll get bored and leave soon.

    nope.  my __ is being run out of here by the majority.  only a small amount of people give a rats ___

    thanks to KT for the offer but it is becomming increasingly clear that there is no way we will reach the amount of people that is required to conduct it with a level needed for valid results.

     

    and as to the 'taking a break', FYI, it is more like unwelcome here because my opinions differ – not materially but in minutiae.  if i'm not on board then gtfo is the clear message from the loudest voices here.  I personally would be ashamed to be participating in a cult information & examining website and then be similarly blinded by group norms that silence voices that we dont like to hear.  Under what pretenses am I the subject of this scorn?  David wants me to use my own name as username.  Ok, what a rediculuous claim: Smurf and setufree and others are examples, as is the reference to being sued by this group and so why would I use a real name?  more likely is that we would use pen names, which is the same thing.  this is just another example of an excuse to push someone out. 

    overall, that is the problem, not only with group-like-this membership but also for people in general:  using anecdotal evidence to support conclusions along with failure to seek out evidence that discredits our current belief?  clinging with dear life to what we have decided about another person being a pos?

    Thats what this survey was to be about.  instead of using what I've learned over a career in market research which makes companies a lot of money.  for once in my life I could do something that really mattered and

    the majority here not only doesnt gaf they rain on the parade for everyone else

    lastly, what else is there?  I'm suspect of being the gp's henchman?  of setting up people to find a way to haul them into court somehow?  here's a grate idea:  we all must pledge that ahn and gil-ja are pos to prove our allegiance to the heinrichs and MMs of the world and that plays right into the hand of the group when anyone still in that last stage can come here for, wait for it:

    confirming a belief, which for them is that this site is satan's realm and people with axes to grind.

    nothing will be good enough for the naysayers until I'm a clone of the 2 previously mentioned above and I just dont stand for it and never have. 

    and here's another self-fulfilling prophecy:  JW goes away. bored. or whatever.  no.  ran out is more like it.

    Whether or not Mann likes Hassan or if Hassan "does a good job" or not.  Hassan doesn't have any real science behind what he does.  disclaimer: that I know of. and I've read his books.  I've also read books by other researchers into human behavior and guess what?  they state p-values and number of people in their studies and how they controlled their studies to remove bias and so on.  Hassan, 0 references to that, but many many references to how people just have seen the light because of his apparent special powers as the "number one" cult referencs on his cover pages.  He probably does a good job.  science? no.  and henrich can call me names all he wants to distract from me knowing the scientific procedure – because my job depends on it – from him throwing up distractions from him being clueless about the process.  and henrich is taking what I said and changing it.  Lifton and Singer were phd's and did do scientific research.  Lifton's was more qualitative than quantitative from what I see in looking at his interviews in the famous throught reform work.  my reference was to show a phd calling out hassan for lack of scientific data.  and that remains, imo, proven.  again, "tell me more" = no.  I get it, gtfo and i'm about there.  its nice that a few still offer to participate but its just never going to get enough responses so this project is dead. ty anyway

    #68885

    Kai TIng
    Participant

    To me the word "Cult" is rubbish anyway, it's just a term that people use when they are too lazy to go into details on what they think and just want to put others down. It is also so broad to the extent that the word is pretty useless.

    Wmscog cult? Nah I rather say it is a "new religious movement" that steal ideas from christianity without giving credit to the originial authors, N@zi cult? nah just a political movement that is extremist, scientology cult? nah just a money making organisation disguised as "self help" and uses science fiction as it's "scriptures". The word "cult" is definitely not in my vocabulary.

    Ya MountainMom and HH have their own ideas, and so do you, jw. So the two of them don't seem to be willing to help as of now? Sure thing then but that does not mean we all conform to them, and it also does not mean that you need to get so pissed off just because they two dont want to help. Who are you to force them? You are acting like a child throwing a tantrum because he cannot get what he wants.

    Ok so this project may be dead, but so what? Just because we made some demands and not very cooperative it makes us all clones? Grow up dude, face the fact that the common idea here is that your idea is not a good one. Again, prove us wrong if you can. Is this the only site about wmscog and you have nowhere else to go to ask for survey participants? no other resources at all? Then how about starting your own website then? And lastly:

    "the majority here not only doesnt gaf they rain on the parade for everyone else" – Since "majority here" belong to the doesn't gaf group, I don't really care that we spoil it for "everyone else".  That's how it works anyway. A new idea comes up, it goes through a voting process, the majority wins and the minority can't do anything about it. You want to be the revolutionary leader from the minority group that overthrows the "examining cult"? Good luck with that, seriously, I'm open to new ideas anytime.

    Meanwhile, stay if you wish to, we are not chasing you away. But with the amount of anger that we can all sense coming from your posts, we suggest that you take a break, for your own health

    #68886

    David
    Participant

    Kai TIng wrote:

    To me the word "Cult" is rubbish anyway, it's just a term that people use when they are too lazy to go into details on what they think and just want to put others down. It is also so broad to the extent that the word is pretty useless.

    Wmscog cult? Nah I rather say it is a "new religious movement" that steal ideas from christianity without giving credit to the originial authors, N@zi cult? nah just a political movement that is extremist, scientology cult? nah just a money making organisation disguised as "self help" and uses science fiction as it's "scriptures". The word "cult" is definitely not in my vocabulary.

    Ya MountainMom and HH have their own ideas, and so do you, jw. So the two of them don't seem to be willing to help as of now? Sure thing then but that does not mean we all conform to them, and it also does not mean that you need to get so pissed off just because they two dont want to help. Who are you to force them? You are acting like a child throwing a tantrum because he cannot get what he wants.

    Ok so this project may be dead, but so what? Just because we made some demands and not very cooperative it makes us all clones? Grow up dude, face the fact that the common idea here is that your idea is not a good one. Again, prove us wrong if you can. Is this the only site about wmscog and you have nowhere else to go to ask for survey participants? no other resources at all? Then how about starting your own website then? And lastly:

    "the majority here not only doesnt gaf they rain on the parade for everyone else" – Since "majority here" belong to the doesn't gaf group, I don't really care that we spoil it for "everyone else".  That's how it works anyway. A new idea comes up, it goes through a voting process, the majority wins and the minority can't do anything about it. You want to be the revolutionary leader from the minority group that overthrows the "examining cult"? Good luck with that, seriously, I'm open to new ideas anytime.

    Meanwhile, stay if you wish to, we are not chasing you away. But with the amount of anger that we can all sense coming from your posts, we suggest that you take a break, for your own health

     Kai, I would not change a word of that! Especially not using the word cult, I should know better than that…Thank you

    #68887

    jw03550
    Participant

    MountainMom wrote:

     

    This sounds interesting.

     

    [less than a week later:]

     

    Approach with caution.

    which was a general theme here for more than just her.  its a set up for wasting someone's time and its disrespectful.

    idgaf about this survey anymore.  any results could just be used by the group anyway as they morph and adjust.  but it really could have been useful to find out (some examples)

    • if a longer or shorter introduction period to the group had a significant impact on longevity of membership, or
    • if participation in activities like clean ups or choir had a significant impact on longevity
    • activities that "wear out" over time, leading to questioning
    • "indicators" that families could use that would be scientifically significant in determining more open windows for acceptance, or questioning, or seeing inconsistencies.

    with ostracism as a very real danger, whatever the findings they otherwise would have been nice to help out families.  In an ironic twist, it would have most likely helped MM the most.

    Anger?  sure.  I don't appreciate carrots and encouragement and then a blind-side slap.  if you didn't already know, that is what the leadership of these types of groups do to throw their members off and keep them off balance.  I should have seen it coming here.  Just about zero questions as to the specifics relative to an overwhelming rain-on-the-parade I've-already-got-my-mind-made-up-anyway, which is closed-minded thinking par-excellence

    I'LL DEFEND MYSELF WHEN I'M ATTACKED WITH BUSSLHIT.

    Bottom line, people stay in cults because they can't view their own ideologies – can't see outside of themselves.  imho, that pattern really isn't any different here.  maybe I'm doing it too but at least I go and question it and i really didn't expect such hard-headedness and lack of seeing thing from a different point of view and taking a shlit on a new person for a period of time that their sharing isn't enough and I've come to realize never is going to be enough, from this site that presents itself as a cult questioning website.  but its a society here where if one fits in they stay and "we're just suggesting you take a break".  omfg its so close to dealing with my friend in the group THATS WHAT PISSES ME OFF.

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