- Topic
So many people have lost their faith due to involvement in the Wms that I think this topic deserves it's own thread. Time after time I have read that former members of the Wms have been so traumatized that they no longer believe in a higher power at all. Several people who post on here have said they are now atheists. Even some parents of current members no longer believe in God because they prayed so hard and for so long to get their children out, and feel as though they got no help.
Diane Simms said in her video that the worst thing is that they "took her faith." I have had current members tell me that "If She is not God, then I don't believe in God at all." That was very hard to hear.
Faith is such a precious thing. It is what most of us turn to in times of extreme strife in our lives, and it is what gets many of us through those terrible times. It gives us comfort, hope, and a reason to go on. To take that away from people is to take away something that helps us get through our daily lives. Optimism and good will suffer, and I just can't believe that is good for the world.
I haven't lost my faith, but I understand what is going on in the minds of people who have. My wish is that some day after all this is over for them, they will be able to regain some of what they have lost.
As for the Wms, you know what the Bible says about people who turn others from God. Especially the children.
MountainMom wrote:
Heinrich Hochhalter wrote:
UntouchableJ wrote:
My wife, kids and I came out in October. Im back to seeing the discrepancies in the Bible, and questioning it alot. My wife, showed my this particular book called, "The Believing Brain" (she has a PhD. In Psychology).
Interesting. A PhD in Psychology gets recruited into WMSCOG?
It is interesting. But I am a firm believer that anyone, regardless of who they are, can become entrapped into something like the Wms. It says nothing about their intelligence or stability.
I have always felt that it might even be easier to indoctrinate highly intelligent people into organizations like this because their minds are always working, they are used to studying late at night and they are open to learning "more"! And in some cases many of them have been trained to trust and have faith in the person at the head of the class.
Guys like me who graduated with a 2.0018 GPA are less interested in learning anything new and more interested in watching college football on Saturdays. For instance if some cute girls stop me on my way into a pub to talk about the bible, I'm walking right past them. Even if they are really cute, I'm still not gonna miss the whole first half to talk about the bible.
As to stability, I do firmly believe someone's current state of mind at the point of contact with the recruiters can make them more susceptible, especially to "love bombing". If you are a young person feeling the pressure of "what will I do with the rest of my life" there's a good chance you might listen to anybody who looks and sounds like they have already got it figured out.
Excellent points David. Speaking for myself, I was never inclined to join a religion because I didn't feel comfortable about "settling down". I always want to see things from all perspectives and to learn more things. The whole idea of submitting to a higher power and having faith in god that everything will be alright just doesn't appeal to me. Putting my emotions and trust in the idea of a god and using the idea of god as a comfort also seems wrong to me.
And yet, when I was in the wmscog, I felt I was learning things, and that excited me. The long list of studies that all new members must have, memorizing verses and presenting it to others, learning "history" when it comes to the Council of Nicea, Daniel's prophecy, the Dark Ages, etc all seemed extremely interesting. To me at least, I can say that I was not there for the "love bombing" but rather the "indoctrination bombing". I have seen various ex-member testimonials and it seemed that what got them out was the increasing pressure on them or the feelings of being unfairly treated, but for me, what got me out was when I realised that the things they teach are actually fabricated and false. It wasn't due to emotional reasons, but rather due to evidences and data from those against the wmscog.
Also you mentioned how some people have the tendency to put trust and faith in the person at the head of the class. That is extremely accurate and true for me, especially when that person seemed to have things figured out. When we look at Christian doctrines among various denominations, there doesn't seem to be a concrete answer and it seems like things are all open for interpretation, but for the wmscog, everything is concrete and fixed (at the point of it being taught). For example:
Some say baptism is required for salvation, some say it is not. wmscog say it 100% is and MUST be immediate.
Some have service on Sunday, some on Saturday, some say it doesn't matter. The wmscog say it 100% is on Saturday and the other is WRONG
Some say salvation by faith alone, some say faith + general good deeds, the wmscog has a strict list of festivals that MUST be kept at all costs.
It is this kind of certainty and confidence that drew me to them. But changing historical facts, misquoting bible verses, ignoring other's opinions, and changing doctrines constantly so that the newest ones are hard to refute, making up lies, etc all just so that their made up doctrine holds? No that is definitely taking it too far.
Kai ting, you bring up an excellent point. To be honest, my guardian has their own set of beliefs and sometimes gets angry that my family member is believing in a “false” God and that things are going to go wrong for them because of this. Don’t get me wrong, my guardian, I know cares about my family member and speaks more out of angry and hurt, but I ferl thier beliefs just pushes my family member more in. I always tell my guardian this and they get mad at me because they say they are not going to give up what they have been taught, despite the fact that my guardian isn’t a church goer and believes most church goers are hypocrites (yes my guardian reflects a mix of beliefs within what they have been taught, so it’s difficult). I always tell my guardian that they don’t have to give up their beliefs, but they have to respect the wms’ beliefs, and I tell my wms member that they have to respect my guardians beliefs. I catch myself in the middle because they both seem to try to shove their beliefs down each others throats and I point this out to both of them. I say that they can believe in what they want but that neither should force anything upon each other. This is why I find SOMETIMES, not as of lately tho, little support from my guardian in this situation. I have told them that we must be on the same page and this isn’t about them. The thing is, my guardian is a bad listener and communication gets distorted and they feel I am attacking them or telling them to give up their beliefs. But back to your comment Kai Ting, I too am interested in how this affects the member when the family member has their own belief system, how do you guys treat the wms member and do you find yourself shoving your beliefs down their throat despite not wanting them to preach at you? I too am curious esp. since I find myself caught between two beliefs.
Also, despite my earlier comments and cynnicism at the bible and Jesus, like I said, I am agnostic. I believe in the beauty of a God. I am confused about it and I cared about answers and certainty before and not having it made me scared and guilty at life, but everything in life is uncertain and nothing is truly black and white, so why should beliefs be or knowing the “truth”, that’s if there is one because again nothing is certain even the truth, it’s all perspective and we are all humans who have no right to be righteous about our beliefs, even with “evidence” and “history”. I say love as I’ve learned through this experience and understanding is key. Saying this, I also speak up for myself to say that if a wms member were reading my ambivalence on God, that they too have no right to judge this ambivalence and that I accept myself and the way I think.
Also, my belief is that I wouldn’t want to believe that God is jealous or cares it a person is praying to another human. I mean as in, God knows people make mistames, if God is a parent to everyone and at some point, most of the time, we ourselves are parents, we unconditionally love our children even being in the wms or making mistakes in life. Well, I assume an almighty being has more than unconditional love and no judgement on a person who prays to a human. These are my thoughts.
Hi folks, especially MM. I salute you.
Thanks for this threat, incredibly useful and helpful.
I haven’t been motivated to comment or even visit the forum at all. I even abandoned my project to document and expose the WMSCOG. But, I decided to visit today because I was feeling nostalgic, and felt compelled to comment on this specific threat because it hit a major nerve after reading some comments down the line. So, I feel I should put my grain of sand in this.
Some of you know my story, like many here I was part of this cult, which ended my five-year happy relationship. I was a vague Catholic who knew very little about the Bible and even less about Christian history. These are the Cons of my story.
Once I lost all that I lost, and it was a lot that I lost. I went down on a road of skepticism. Questioning every angle of the Bible, as well as Christianity and religion as whole. I interviewed an incredible amount of believers such as church devotees, priests, and pastors from many different denominations of Christianity. All in search of answers.
Here’s what I learned.
No matter how strong and extensive a person’s educational background or life intelligence is, for as long as he or she believes that what’s in the Bible is truly the word of God, this person will always be an easy prey for the WMSCOG or any other cult that uses the Bible as excuse to manipulate people’s faith and feelings.
One thing that a person owes to himself or herself is to ALWAYS question EVERYTHING. And, that’s the very one thing Christian teaching forbids everyone from doing.
According to Christian teachings through the Bible, the word of God is infallible and his power unquestionable. People are incredibly afraid of asking question, especially members of the WMSCOG, and it is precisely because of the idea of the word of God being infallible and his power unquestionable that people fall for these cults. It’s like searching for the end of perfect circle. There’s no way to find it, but of course, a blind believer would never dare to use logical senses on Bible teachings.
I also learned that most people are taught to fear and follow the word of God before he/she learns how to read the Bible. I remember as a kid, God watching us from above was very often used to inflict fear so that as kid I would behave and respect the elders. I wouldn’t’ dare do anything that would unleash the wrath of God or I would either be punished by my grandma or worst-case scenario, go to hell.
Then, you would learn to read and follow what’s in the Bible, but always in coaching and according to an elder’s perspective, never your own. You were never intelligent enough to understand the Bible by yourself. In reality, the elders never wanted to give you the lead to question and search on your own. They knew that you would divert from the traditional points of view of the church. And, whatever question you had, only the priest had the answer to it. No better way of monopolizing the information and manipulating your thoughts.
I assure everyone that if the true history of Christianity was to be taught in our school system since the beginning, it wouldn’t have had survived as a religion for longer than a century perhaps. Maybe, society would have viewed it and have read the Bible in the same context as we do with Greek mythology, which is it what truly is.
My thoughts of addressing the following question:
So without being involved in a specific group, who is your god and how do you know that?
God is not a person, but a force. It’s the force of all natural things. Therefore, a person should not have to choose what God to follow. Religion divided the idea of a different God, and our ancestors created the concept of religion because of their differences in social and moral views. Let’s remember that this was done more than 2000 years ago. Religion was, and is still is, the dogma of the time. The only way of putting order on an illiterate society that knew very little about ethics, respect and moral behaviors was to inflict the fear of a higher power.
As society grew bigger, so did the many different ideas of religion and with it, the many different Gods. We can prove this concept by simply making a comparison on the context of the Bible, the Quran and the Torah. We can also choose to learn our history a little better and surely we will find the true nature and porpuse of our religious system.
Religion serves as a spiritual channel, which is also used to divide us as human.
To follow God without getting entangled in groups; a person must make amends that God is not with us to tell us what to do or to save us from any harm. All the goods and the bads that exist today, has been created by us and only us.
He already gave us this beautiful world with an incredible amount of resources. This is our kingdom. There’s a reason why we're here on this Earth, it is not by chance or coincidence. And, It is certainly not test us or punish us for betraying him, like the WMS claims we are here for. He gave us this Earth full of life and diversity and he gave us freedom to use it all. It is up to us to live as decent humans in harmony and in peace.
This string is very sensitive to me as I have been on this journey for 3+ years now. Although this group claims to only involve and alter the lives of its members, it is life-changing to the family of the member as well. I have spared you many details of my story but I apologize because this post is still long. I apologize if I offend anyone. My goal is simply to share my feelings.
I was raised in a Christian home; I attended church services regularly, was involved in the youth group, and married a Christian man who had the same background. We raised our children in a Christian home, attended church and Bible studies, prayed over our food, prayed with our children every night before bed and taught them that the Bible was the word of God.
I wondered about why God didn’t seem to show up at times – people sick, dying, in crisis, etc. but I usually pushed it out of my mind. I was a believer and we didn’t always understand God’s ways and I surely shouldn’t question them.
Three years ago my child was recruited into the WMSCOG. Our family was devastated. How could this happen? We had raised our child right, provided a good and loving home – why was God allowing this to happen? I had people tell me that God would use it to his glory, that maybe our child had to go through this in order to help others. We prayed, our family prayed, our friends prayed; we believed she would soon realize that this was lies and leave. It got worse. She quit college and moved in with her “sisters”, her “spiritual family.” It got worse. No Thanksgiving, no Christmas with the family. We were broken hearted. We were told we were going to hell, were called names, were told Father and Mother would punish us. She eventually cut off contact with us.
I prayed harder than I had ever prayed. Why was my father and Grandmother in heaven not watching out for our child? We were always taught that they were in a better place and they would be our angels watching out for us? I didn’t feel it. I felt deserted. Friends said to pray, our church gathered and prayed, something would surely be happening soon. But nothing positive happened.
I cried every night. I know that some would say I was over reacting but I felt emptiness. My family was broken. I was broken. After months of praying and no answer I decided to try something different. I thought that maybe my child was right. Maybe Zang was God and I needed to give her a chance. So I started praying to her. Everyday. I asked for forgiveness for things I had said about her. I pleaded with her as a mother to understand how I felt about losing my child. And I gave her a deadline. 3 months. If I or anyone in my family heard from my child in any way – text, phone call, letter – I would leave my church and become a follower. I would attend services on Sabbath, pay my tithes – I would be a devoted follower. I knew how to do it; I had been one for 40+ years.
My son graduated from high school. No message. No card, no congratulatory text, no phone call – nothing. The deadline came and I extended it to September. My other son was getting married. We figured there would be no appearance (even though the wedding took place on a Sunday) but again – nothing. No card, no call, no message to wish him well on his wedding day.
There was the answer – Zang wasn’t God. It would have been so easy for her to call the pastor and the pastor tell my child to call or text or write – but nothing happened because she couldn’t hear my prayers. She was not God.
I realized that although my prayers were not answered by a WMSCOG god, my god had not answered my prayers either. People would tell me that God was faithful. No he wasn’t. I was the faithful one. I had followed and prayed and lived a Christian life and what did I get – my child in a cult!
I had been telling my child to do her research – read both sides of the story. But I realized that I had never done that with my faith. Some terrible things, scandulous stories had been reported throughout the years, but I blamed the human and never God. I believed because I was raised to believe. I had read books about Mormons, Scientology, Jonestown. I read books by cult experts about characteristics of cults and mind control. But I had never read anything negative about Christianity. So I started to read. I read two books by former ministers who are now non-believers. It was eye-opening! The third book I read is written by a non-believer who walks through the Bible, starting with Genesis, pointing out the impossibilities and the contradictions. My revelation is that the bible is not true. It was written by men who retold stories and made up new ones. I am no longer a believer.
My other children no longer believe. My husband is a believer. He still goes to church and I go with him sometimes but only because I love him and I want to support him. I don’t expect those reading this to stop believing. I understand. It was really hard for me to give up what I had believed my whole life. I haven’t told my church friends because (from the books I read by the former ministers) they would try to convert me back and when that didn’t work, they would disassociate from me. They are good people and they truly believe that they know the truth. They want to believe and at some level need that belief. I was there; I understand.
Diane said in her video that “they (WMSCOG) had taken her faith.” I don’t blame them for taking my faith. I blame them for breaking up my family, for hurting my family, for damaging my child, for implanting fear in her, for turning her against us. I blame them for running a scam against vulnerable people who innocently give this group their trust, their time, their money, their lives. I blame them for the hole in my heart.
I respect the beliefs and non-beliefs alike from the people on this site. The people here (especially Mountain Mom) have saved me many times from sinking into a black hole. I have now turned my focus to my kids who have made good decisions in their lives, who love me and want me in their lives. But I am sad for my child who is part of this group. Their conditional love will never replace our family’s unconditional love. We have only ever wanted the best for our children. But the “best” no longer includes a lifetime of belief in an invisible being or an ancient book of stories. I now live my life based in reality and I amgood with that.
@Ms.Freedom. I feel your pain. Hold fast, your breakthrough is coming
Thank you again MountainMom for starting this topic. My heart breaks for every story of faith lost, shattered, or shaken, and I mourn for both the exmembers and the families dealing with it (and for the current members too). I'm also glad this has been a safe thread to share experiences and beliefs, without it becoming a heated debate about those beliefs.
Kai TIng wrote:
So without being involed in a specific group, who is your god and how do you know that?
I've been thinking a lot about this question and how best to express why I believe in God still, after all I've seen in life. (Sad to say, the wmscog is not the only difficult, destructive, or heartbreaking experience.)
I believe in God the creator, and in Jesus who was crucified and resurrected. When my world shakes and I wonder whether God is really there, I go back to the foundation of my faith to remind myself that yes, He is. These are the ideas and facts that are true no matter what my feelings or emotional state. That is what my faith is built on. Here are a few of them:
Creation (the world and everything in it) — The intricacy, complexity, and details in everything point to a creator (no matter whether it took days or eons). From the apple tree by my window, to the hands that I use to type, to the mold in the slimy puddle outside, to the molecules in my cotton shirt… It takes much more faith to believe the world came about by chance than it does to believe it has a creator.
Morality — If I believe there are actions that are evil, then there is either an objective standard for what is evil or else evil is merely a matter of opinion. If there are actions (like rape and murder, or like the atrocities commited at the Nazi death camps) that are inherently evil (no matter the time, place, or culture), then there must be an objective standard to base that on, and there must be a judge–that would be God. If there is no God, then there is no ultimate judge, and nothing is inherently good or evil. There is only what society has decided would be valued or punished, but that really comes down to opinion. Therefore, I would have no moral grounds to object to human trafficking, child abuse, or fraud (for examples), and there would be no ultimate judge for the perpetrators.
The Resurrection — The evidence is very strong that the Resurrection of Jesus actually happened. You might think that there is no difference between Jesus, Muhammad, Confucius, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Ahnsahnghong, but Jesus is the only one who actually lived, claimed to be God, and then proved it with the Resurrection. He's not a figment of someone's imagination, and He can't be simply a good teacher. I've read the arguments against the Resurrection, and none of them pan out. I found it pretty hard to overcome the evidence for Jesus, once I took a good look at it all.
Travis wrote:
One thing that a person owes to himself or herself is to ALWAYS question EVERYTHING. And, that’s the very one thing Christian teaching forbids everyone from doing.
In my experience, I have not found Christianity to forbid questioning. In fact, there are many examples in the Bible that encourage questioning. I think if someone discourages or forbids questioning (about anything, not just Christianity), there could be a number of reasons:
1. They don't want to admit they don't know the answer.
2. They can't take the time or bother to find out the answer.
3. They are afraid of what the answer might be, and don't want to know.
4. They know the answer but don't want to reveal it. (This could be for either good or bad reasons.)
5. Whether or not they know the answer, they want to keep a position of power over the questioner. (They might not even care about the answer.)
Genny, I respect your words. I know that you are a Christian; I have read your posts for several years now. I know that you believe in Jesus as your savior and that he died for your sins. I'm not here to try and change your mind or beliefs. My journey and research has led me to non-belief while your journey has deepened your faith. Although we are different in that respect, I know that our goal here is the same: to help the members see that they are being mislead and point them to freedom. Whether they come out as believers or not, they will be free to study, research and decide for themselves their path in life. It will make no difference to me when my child leaves if she believes or not. I will still love her unconditionally.
@ Mountain He can only see this for himself. My mom stopped trying to show us what was wrong, and started showing more love. She asked about us, kids and interests. I know this is hard because your family member is in deep. Simply, Dont quit. “Love covers a multitude of sins”, even others.
Thanks, MsFreedom. I appreciate your sharing your story, and my goal is not to change your mind about Christianity either. But I am glad that we support each other against our common enemy and for the good of our families.
What all the stories in this thread have shown me is that a person's involvement in the wmscog doesn't just affect their own life and faith, but also everyone around them who loves and cares for them. And the effects can be deep and life changing. It makes me think of a tumor with tendrils that attach to surrounding tissues and damage them too.
That is a excellent analogy! If the member is saved early on, the family is able to move past it. The longer the member remains, the more the family is affected. Missed weddings, graduations, holidays, funerals and vacations begins to create a resentment. The longer the member stays, the deeper the resentment and hurt.
@Mountain I will def. keep you in my thoughts. I would have thought, that after 2012 didnt happen, people would have left. Hell, we dodnt leave but that was because of fear.
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