- Topic
So many people have lost their faith due to involvement in the Wms that I think this topic deserves it's own thread. Time after time I have read that former members of the Wms have been so traumatized that they no longer believe in a higher power at all. Several people who post on here have said they are now atheists. Even some parents of current members no longer believe in God because they prayed so hard and for so long to get their children out, and feel as though they got no help.
Diane Simms said in her video that the worst thing is that they "took her faith." I have had current members tell me that "If She is not God, then I don't believe in God at all." That was very hard to hear.
Faith is such a precious thing. It is what most of us turn to in times of extreme strife in our lives, and it is what gets many of us through those terrible times. It gives us comfort, hope, and a reason to go on. To take that away from people is to take away something that helps us get through our daily lives. Optimism and good will suffer, and I just can't believe that is good for the world.
I haven't lost my faith, but I understand what is going on in the minds of people who have. My wish is that some day after all this is over for them, they will be able to regain some of what they have lost.
As for the Wms, you know what the Bible says about people who turn others from God. Especially the children.
I find this thread extremely interesting and I also know how precious "faith" is to those who are religious. Though I am an atheist (or anti-theist) and have my reasons to stay this way I do not wish to try and affect people otherwise as long as they are happy with what they are doing and do not negatively affect others.
Recently I talked to my wmscog senior (who I now treat as a friend) and told him flat out that if he enjoys what he is doing and do not feel trapped at all then by all means carry on, and I wished him all the best and not to lose sight of the real world and hope that he will not be traumatised when zhang dies and yet the world goes on. I also warned him about how it feels to have your focus in life (for many members that will be zion) ripped away from you, and to ask him to go easy on the new members
But back to topic
With all due respect, no I don't think you understand what is going on in the minds of people who have "lost their faith". If by "faith" you mean a belief in a higher power, then no, faith is not what atheists turn to in times of extreme strife. Let's assume that the existence of a "higher power" is up to debate, there is no reason why we need to turn to that for comfort, when we have many other alternatives. I know this sounds rude, but to atheists there is pretty much no difference between Jesus, Hercules, or the Flying Speghetti Monster (except one of them is considered real by many people even until today).
I have seen various debates on religion, and there was one that pretty much summed it up for me and impressed me the most. It was Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins and Grayling on one side, and Julia (Jewish Rabbi), Roger Scruton (Philosopher) and Nigel (a teacher of Classical Arts in Archeology) on the other side. Here's the video. I highly, highly recommend it to everyone to see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWOZi_OUQL8
What really stands out is 1:44:59 and 1:19:20, though I recommend everyone to watch the whole video, to get the wide range of ideas being presented.
But in short though, why is it that some people believe that religion has a monopoly on providing comfort, hope, and a reason to go on? Why does some people believe that religion should have a monopoly on emotions, poetry, and morals?
I find the idea that believeing in something that may not be real to be necessary for a happy life to be rather sad actually, and the idea that you better believe it or you will suffer in hell to be even more worrying, and can have dire results in the wrong hands. Of course, I do acknowledge the fact that religion has progrssed as times changed and that's all good, but again, why is it even necessary in the first place?
I want to make it clear that to most atheists out there, there is nothing sad about "losing the faith" or "being an atheist". Same way as how religious people most likely do not agree with my previous paragraph on how needing god to be happy is actually quite sad and worrying.
I hope that I didn't sound too insulting, and even while being totally against religion, I do acknowledge that to some it is indeed an important aspect of life. So since we are dealing with the atrocity of the wmscog…then whatever floats your boat mate ๐
I whole heartedly agree and have witnessed the same thing MountainMom has described. Most former members choose to describe what happened to them as being spiritually rapped. I choose to describe this in one word "EVIL". Evil makes people feel confused, discouraged, at times self righteous, takes oppinion as fact, and creates a false sense of reality. When a person escapes from something evil they have a tendance to never want to get involved with anything that could even resemble it. It's understandable however, at the same time being very destructive to the individual. We all seek things that are greater than ourselves. For the individuals that try and choose not to believe in any god they have to in fact try and shut down a part of their own human nature. Groups that participate in this kind of EVIL …. I don't even know what to say here. If you are one of those folks that have been hurt and are choosing to believe that there is no god please consider what it is you are choosing to try and do. You don't need to be involved in a specific group but in your heart you know that there is a spiritual connection that is missing. Open yourself up to at least the possibility that there is a God. If you are able to do that then hopefully one day you will be open to the idea that God does care about you and wants to have a real relationship with you as an individual.
Joshua wrote:
I whole heartedly agree and have witnessed the same thing MountainMom has described. Most former members choose to describe what happened to them as being spiritually rapped. I choose to describe this in one word "EVIL". Evil makes people feel confused, discouraged, at times self righteous, takes oppinion as fact, and creates a false sense of reality. When a person escapes from something evil they have a tendance to never want to get involved with anything that could even resemble it. It's understandable however, at the same time being very destructive to the individual. We all seek things that are greater than ourselves. For the individuals that try and choose not to believe in any god they have to in fact try and shut down a part of their own human nature. Groups that participate in this kind of EVIL …. I don't even know what to say here. If you are one of those folks that have been hurt and are choosing to believe that there is no god please consider what it is you are choosing to try and do. You don't need to be involved in a specific group but in your heart you know that there is a spiritual connection that is missing. Open yourself up to at least the possibility that there is a God. If you are able to do that then hopefully one day you will be open to the idea that God does care about you and wants to have a real relationship with you as an individual.
So without being involed in a specific group, who is your god and how do you know that?
Kai TIng wrote:
…. So since we are dealing with the atrocity of the wmscog…then whatever floats your boat mate ๐
I like that. "The Atrocity of the WMSCOG". Very appropriate.
My whole post was deleted, I get confused when editing. I basically claim to ve agnostic with my own experience as a family member of a wms member. I will come back and rewrite.
I too find this thread really interesting. I can only speak for myself as a family member of a wms member, that I have questioned to the point in not believing Jesus was or is God. I don’t believe in the bible much, but I think it CAN be used as a guide. However, I just believe it’s a book written by many men who had different ideas and claimed that God or a higher power spoke to them. I believe myself to be more agnostic than anything. I do still believe there is a higher power out there. Both due to fear but also due to the many coincidences I experience through life. With that said, I too believe God is in the people who touch our lives. I believe there probably was a man named Jesus and even Mohammed, but that these people were teachers and probably men with lots of Love or maybe manipulation in their hearts. I mean if Jesus never claimed to be God, did he deny it as well? We picture Zang as evil because she doesn’t deny being God. Although I realize that probably in the Bible it doesn’t picture Jesus as a banker like Zang, there’s not much info. Well, like I said, I’m not familiar with the Bible, but of what I have read, it just mentions God, and not Jesus himself, or maybe I’m wrong. I have no clue. Before, I feared God, because I felt guilty about doing thr slightest bad things and this was without any religion behind me. Now, with wms, sometimes I have shouted that I hate him. It makes me feel bad, but I accept that I have a mix of feelings.
The person who influenced our family member into joining was from an evangelical christian family, the type of believers who have this "personal relationship" thing with Jesus or God. Our family member was not raised that way at all. So this type of cult (like Unification Church) can attract believers and non believers, and influence them with their coercive control tactics to believe what they want them to believe. I.E. a divorced Korean woman is God, or God's mother, or whatever the h e l l it is.
I too find this thread really interesting. I can only speak for myself as a family member of a wms member, that I have questioned to the point in not believing Jesus was or is God. I don’t believe in the bible much, but I think it CAN be used as a guide. However, I just believe it’s a book written by many men who had different ideas and claimed that God or a higher power spoke to them. I believe myself to be more agnostic than anything. I do still believe there is a higher power out there. Both due to fear but also due to the many coincidences I experience through life. With that said, I too believe God is in the people who touch our lives. I believe there probably was a man named Jesus and even Mohammed, but that these people were teachers and probably men with lots of Love or maybe manipulation in their hearts. I mean if Jesus never claimed to be God, did he deny it as well? We picture Zang as evil because she doesn’t deny being God. Although I realize that probably in the Bible it doesn’t picture Jesus as a banker like Zang, there’s not much info. Well, like I said, I’m not familiar with the Bible, but of what I have read, it just mentions God, and not Jesus himself, or maybe I’m wrong. I have no clue if it discusses him as the person he was on earth and what he did. All I know, is that there are many contradictions in the bible and God is pictured with a big ego. The particular story I hate is the one of Abraham and having to prove his trust by killing who he loved. Also how God spoke to Kings who didn’t even believe in him. Before, I feared God, because I felt guilty about doing thr slightest bad things and this was without any religion behind me, just maybe some bible influence. Now, with wms, sometimes I have shouted that I hate him. It makes me feel bad, but I accept that I have a mix of feelings.
This is an interesting topic, MountainMom!
I have known people who've gone through various traumatic experiences and difficult circumstances — some have become stronger in their faith (or found faith), while others have become weaker or lost their faith.
I did not grow up with a faith, but found it after high school. There have been many times when I've had to remind myself why I believe there is a God, why I believe in Jesus, and why I believe in salvation by faith. Everytime I have ripped by faith 'building' apart to examine it, I've found a secure foundation, and the bricks have fallen back into place again, though sometimes a bit of remodeling is necessary as my experience with God grows. But like Hebrews 4:12 describes, "For the word of God is alive and active…," our faith should be dynamic, not static.
For those ex-members whose faith in God has been lost or weakened, my hope is that they will find healing and and will be able to go back to the foundation of their faith to make the needed repairs so that eventually their faith is more stable than before.
I found these books good for building a firm faith foundation, both authors were once atheists who became Christians:
Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis
The Case for Faith and The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel
Hurt wrote:
I mean if Jesus never claimed to be God, did he deny it as well?
And by the way, Jesus did claim to be God. I think the wmscog says He did not, but maybe they didn't read that part in the Bible. You know how they seem to pick and choose…
Kai wrote:
So without being involed in a specific group, who is your god and how do you know that?
Kai, I'm not going to go into great depth here but I am a Christian and I do attend a non-denominational church. I understand your feelings even though I don't agree with them. You and I are able to be friends without being in agreement with each other. Others on this forum choose to be friends with me even though I have been very open about my Christianity and my desire for them to be also. I have never had the desire to beat someone over the head with the Bible as a way for them to come into a personal relationship with God. Unfortunately the thoughts that come into a persons mind when they think of Christians is not the most pleasant. Too many people being overly judgemental in the name of Christianity I'm afraid. As for being involved in a specific group goes no one has the complete package or corner market on truth or knowledge of the will of God. This is why people must NOT take what others tell them as some kind of absolute truth. Research, research, research! I never expect people to take my word for anything what I do expect is that God gave us all a mind to use and He expects us to use it.
You know, I wish that things like science were able to explain the things around us but what I have discovered is that science is ill equiped to handle the supernatural. Too many things have happened over the generations for there to be no rational explaination for it. Things like this have firmly placed me in the belief that God is real and the only living example throughout history has been Jesus the Christ. I hope everyone can understand where I'm coming from whether you choose to have faith that there is a God or not.
My wife, kids and I came out in October. Im back to seeing the discrepancies in the Bible, and questioning it alot. My wife, showed my this particular book called, “The Believing Brain” (she has a PhD. In Psychology). The books main focus, is that almost like the other basic necessities (Food, Warmth, Shelter, Social/Sexual relationships), the mind has a need to believe in something greater than itself, or in the devine. Therefor in essence, if there isnt something to believe in the human mind will create it. This also (more so for the WMS) will go into the minds need to even justify the errors in the theology. I remember when we were studying “7day creation” sermon. In Genesis there is a clear contradiction when Light, and the Sun, are created at two different days/times. WMS claimes in the study that the “Light” was God creating, “Mans knowledge of God” and the Sun was just, well,the Sun. So, in essence believers will fight hard, to hold on to that belief and it goes so with other religions. In Islam there is a reference to the Earth being “rolled out” like a carpet…making the thought that the Earth is Flat. I’ve seen videos of Imans and Clerics defending this, even saying that modern science lies to debyunk their faith.
I feel sad that some have lost their faith after leaving the WMS. I lost some relationships because of this church but not my faith. The person must have been affected deeply if loss of faith has occurred. What is this church doing to people? I did feel affect deeply in my spirit. But I don’t understand how simple church services can be so emotionally damaging.
I hope time can heal and faith can be found again.
UntouchableJ wrote:
My wife, kids and I came out in October. Im back to seeing the discrepancies in the Bible, and questioning it alot. My wife, showed my this particular book called, "The Believing Brain" (she has a PhD. In Psychology).
Interesting. A PhD in Psychology gets recruited into WMSCOG?
What are you up to there mountain mom? Is heinrich your other handle? Hmm?
@Heinrich Well my wife is under thr Psych umbrella but not a clinical Psychologist. Like many, she was attracted because they had answers to many questions….later we realized they were just deep interpretations.
@Heinrich Well my wife is under thr Psych umbrella but not a clinical Psychologist. Like many, she was attracted because they had answers to many questions….later we realized they were just deep interpretations.
@MM: Actually I'm not 100% sure about the being traumatized part, I mean yes many people are traumatized by the experience but I do know of one or two rare cases who just comes and goes without much trouble. For ex-members I think it all boils down to how much commitment and focus was put into the wmscog. In a way I was trying to let him see that there is more to life than just the wmscog, and ease himself out of it instead of going cold turkey. It is not of my interest to tell others what to do, and I just want him to have an easier time getting out. I did, however, shown him much evidences against their doctrines, but I did not try to dictate how he should see the evidences.
Back to the topic of "stealing faith", I seem to observe a trend that people who share this sentiment are either those who were already religious and yet still fell prey to the wmscog, or religious people who have their family members in the wmscog. I want to post an honest question here to everyone who belongs to the two groups I mentioned: Do you think that your own set of beliefs on who god is, and the difference between your belief and those of the wmscog actually plays a part in how you perceive the situation? Is their involvement worrying to you purely because of the negative effects this group has, or maybe it is also partly due to your own beliefs/prejudice? I am asking out of curiousity, as I myself was a non-believer before the wmscog, and now am back to being a non-believer.
Side note: I just realised how for wmscog reading this they can claim that this is evidence of how the weeds (babylon and non-believers) are being bundled together (weeds and wheat parable) / how "2000 years ago the religious leaders grouped up with secular leaders to go against Jesus") HAHHA
Kai TIng wrote:
Do you think that your own set of beliefs on who god is, and the difference between your belief and those of the wmscog actually plays a part in how you perceive the situation? Is their involvement worrying to you purely because of the negative effects this group has, or maybe it is also partly due to your own beliefs/prejudice?
I am a Christian, and my sister was too.
I do think it plays a part because I see her giving her devotion to imposter gods, and I worry about her grief when she realizes it.
But it's only a part, because I also sense her being manipulated, I've seen her act like another person, I've seen her make choices that can't be undone. I can't get into specifics, but these negative effects are life-related things, not betrayal-of-God-related things.
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