Saying things without saying things, a case study

  • Creator
    Topic
  • #7328
    Questioninginla
    Participant

    So after a long day and drive home from work, something from college occurred to me (hey I did get something out of it!).  Anyone familiar with the Stanford Prison Experiment?

    In the SPE, the first "prisoner" to be released suffers, basically, a nervous breakdown.  Prior to the overall breakdown, this prisoner goes to Zimbardo to complain of his suffering, anxiety, etc. and get released from the experiment (although very quickly both guards and prisoners stop calling it an "experiment", because it became a real prison to them). Anyway, Zimbardo (who also quickly took on a group role and became enmeshed in the group process as well), cleverly uses his words to convince the prisoner to stay, yet doesn't techinically lie to the prisoner…Zimbardo gives the impression that the prisoner may not simply leave so easily; yet, all the while, the prisoner has committed to an experiment and actually had the absolute right to leave.  Zimbardo wins the moment and the prisoner returns to his cell, thinking he can't leave.

    Here's the good part.  This prisoner tells the other prisoners that "no one can leave" "we can't get out of here".

    Zimbardo never said that, yet it made its way quickly through the group and became a "known fact" – albeit a cleverly manufactured "fact".

    Any thoughts?

    So, many groups use "pray on it", and I hear this one does too.  Or, referring to a Bible verse and leaving the decision up to the member (as if they really have a choice in the matter, facing certain disdain, criticism, or possible ostracism).  It seems to be a form of "plausible deniability".  So clever.  I'm really looking forward to comments on this one because the effects are so dynamic in the group setting.

  • #58210

    Simon
    Participant

    The group definitely opperates on rumours

    #58211

    Simon
    Participant

    The group definitely opperates on rumours

    #58212

    emil
    Participant

    That is quite a brilliant strategy. I have heard bits and pieces about GP's background. From what I gathered, it seems higly unlikely that he would be able to come up with such a brilliant approach. However, if this is common practice among Korean cults then it could just be copycat procedure. After all there is enough that we know of they have copied from others.

    #58213

    Simon
    Participant

    Or maybe he came across it by accident and figured how to use it to his advantage

    #58214

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    I watched the documentary of that on YT. It is quite disturbing. After only the 1st day the subjects were taken over by their roles. The prisoners felt like prisoners though they had done nothing wrong. The WMSCOG does the same thing in both directions. They make people feel like they can't leave even though the members know it's a choice. But look at the other side of the token.. They make the members feel some sort of righteouness [though having done nothing right] as well giving them the idea of "why would they leave?" They're princes and princesses, children of the true and living god. I struggled with this battle between being the guard with power and also being the prisoner with no power.

    I don't think it's too difficult to come up with because I've seen it growing up. I see it in my daughter when she takes pretending to be the teacher to the head. I think what's difficult is doing it on such a grand scale. The Koreans have managed to get even US born Americans to use the same strategy without realizing what they're doing. That was something they couldn't get me to do. They pulled the trick on me but couldn't get me to pull the trick on other people.

    #58215

    MountainMom
    Participant

    This is a very good description of how the wmscog operates.  One in charge seems to tell others, and they spread the rumors. Tough to trace rumors and tie it to the pastor or main recruiter. Also, a more direct way is used, where they (in my son's case, the leader told him) tell you something happened to someone who missed a Saturday service, and that it is possible something could happen to you as well if you miss.  "Possible" is the key word I think.  Not for sure, but then if anything does happen to the member who missed, even in the months to follow, they sneakily refer back to the missed Saturday as the cause.  The member thinks,"Wow, this is what they said would happen!"   They used this on my son.  I don't think anything happened to him after he missed, but I am sure if it did, they would have referred back to his missed service.  Sneaky manipulation, mind control technique.

    #58216

    Questioninginla
    Participant

    In reference to MMs post, does anyone have first hand information on members that did not miss Saturday services yet were harmed?  If so, how does that get handled?

    #58217

    MountainMom
    Participant

    I heard of one who was hit by a truck the day after Passover.  When a member asked the pastor if he had heard about that, the pastor denied the woman was at Passover.  The member said, yes she was, but the pstor just denied it and walked away like it never happened.  Denial works for them, I guess. 

    I did hear this story second hand, though, so you have yet to get a first hand account.  Anyone?

    #58218

    Simon
    Participant

    No first hand account here but people have had accidents on the way to Sabbath (they went 8 times out of 10 but they weren't "perfect" since that was your question) which they "miraculously" survived.

    #58219

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    I have a funny story!!

    After I had left the WMSCOG the 1st time, I returned with a repentant* heart. I went full throttle and didn't miss anything. Not a service, bible study, preaching meeting, not anything! One day, after a bible study I think, I went to get ice cream before heading home. I was eating while driving and admit that I'm not very good at it. But it was super hot and the ice cream was super yummy. Anyway, it was dripping down my hand so I reached down toward the floor to get a napkin. I was going maybe 40 mph and didn't see the light in front of me was red. There was a line of cars stopped in front and I rear ended a small sedan which was completely stopped. I drive an SUV so you know I tore that mug up! The trunk was crunched all the way in and the car was pushed a good 10 feet forward. I sat there for a minute gathering myself and pulled over to the curb to accept my fault. BUT the car that I hit just kept driving. It went off onto the freeway. There was a huge crowd of people on the sidewalk who saw the whole thing. I pulled over but the guy I hit just kept driving. I went back to Zion to pray. Guess what the sisters told me when I shared my story? F&M!! It's a good thing F&M let that person drive because you could have gotten into a lot of trouble. Thanks to F&M you have the protection of the PO… I looked at them like they were crazy. Lol.. That guy pulled off probably because he was driving illegally or something. My car had no damage and not because of F&M but because I drive a truck. No air bags were deployed.. My ice cream didn't spill.. All that was lost was my front license plate.

    #58220

    Questioninginla
    Participant

    Very funny story, Renita.

    One of the Lifton criteria is Mystical Manipulation.  Surely, your good fortune had to be explained in terms of F&M, right?

    #58221

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    They had nothing to say about my bad driving though. No one said, "Sister, you shouldn't eat and drive." or anything like that. We're also taught not to "dwell" or even think about the bad stuff. In that situation they were covering my faults [Mother's Teachings] by not speaking about my bad driving. And they were giving praise to F&M even though it was a bad situation [Mother's Teachings].

    That's another thing or maybe it's a trigger word but whenever someone did something unfavorable we would simply say, "Mother's Teachings" and that would "fix" the problem. I liked Mother's Teachings but the members got annoying with them. I guess because I wasn't very good at practicing the teachings.. lol.

    #58222

    Simon
    Participant

    The teachings are good if you apply them as Biblical principles rather than as a list from a Mother God

    #58223

    Sarah2013
    Participant

    Simon wrote:

    The teachings are good if you apply them as Biblical principles rather than as a list from a Mother God

    No doubt, Simon. Having said that, Lucifer (Satan) knows scripture, should I go to him to teach me the bible? 

    #58224

    Simon
    Participant

    That's why I said don't follow them because mother taught them, study the Bible and you will find them anyways and follow them from that

    #58225

    Sarah2013
    Participant

    Simon wrote:

    That's why I said don't follow them because mother taught them, study the Bible and you will find them anyways and follow them from that

    I got you, Simon. My question was more rhetorical than direct.  

    #58226

    Simon
    Participant

    That's me always answering rhetorical questions 🙂

    #58227

    Sarah2013
    Participant

    That's why you are Simon and we are not. 🙂

    #58228

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    Sarah2013 wrote:

    Simon wrote:

    The teachings are good if you apply them as Biblical principles rather than as a list from a Mother God

    No doubt, Simon. Having said that, Lucifer (Satan) knows scripture, should I go to him to teach me the bible? 

    Sure you can. He'll tell you the opposite of what the bible says, usually. So take whatever he says and invert it. =) 97% of the time it'll be acurate.

    #58229

    Simon
    Participant

    LOL Satan is more crafty than that just best to ignore period

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