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Everyone here knows our intereptation for this verse. As everyone only says we are wrong no one cares to give an explanation. That's very cowardly, this is a debate, Joshua(not attacking the person but method) likes to say, study it yourself, but that defeats the purpose of debating.
fromtheotherside wrote:
I think 144000 already did that for you.
No I don't think so. He brought up many more points that are outside the context of Revelation. He did not confirm that I had represented the list of points correctly.
If you don't want to give a confirmation, then I'll have to just assume that the list is correct and complete. But don't come back later and say that I had it wrong in the beginning. This is your opportunity.
Your consistent lack of knowledge of American culture and speech patterns was made apparent AGAIN in this thread
fromtheotherside wrote:
emil wrote:
Verse 39 is very clear that The living water IS the Holy Spirit. God is the source and the Holy Spirit is the living water which flows out from every believer.
That is the flow diagram that John illustrates in Jn 7:37-39 is this: The Holy Spirit emanates from God, flows through and emerges out of the believer.
Very good Emil now you get it, a person can not be the source of the water of life! It is the holy spirit. That is why the holy spirit and the bride can not be the saints! Amen you got it now.
Yes I got it but apparently you didn't. Once again a nice way to illustrate your comprehension skills. Read what I have written and don't put words in my mouth. Let me make it as simple as possible for those who have difficulty in comprehension.
The Holy Spirit is the living water. God/Jesus is the source of the water. The bride (collection of believers) and each individual believer has the ability to invite others to receive the Holy Spirit which emanates from God and flows through the believer. As we can see, in Rev 22:17 the bride doesn't give the Holy Spirit but invites people to receive the Holy Spirit. That is something within the capability of every believer. God gives; a believer is a channel.
Regarding the bride being ZGJ, I have already posted a comment in another thread which you can challenge. Is she the literal bride or the spiritual bride of Ahn?
fromtheotherside wrote:
It's already been disproved that the bride is a collection of Believers,
Where and by whom? It has never been proven. It may perhaps have been weakly disputed but never proven.
also it's been proved that the one's who hear and say come are those said believers.
Yes. As individuals. The sentence in singular.
If the bride is not the one to give or neither the source than the Holy spirit is neither,
That is not a logical conclusion. There is no reason to conclude that the bride and the Holy Spirit both have the same abilities. You are forcing the conclusion.
but that is not true so your statement is again out the window,
I have shown above that your conclusion is forced.
we already proved our point by showing you the sequence of order, of that verse, 1. the spirit and bride (together say come) 2 those who hear (believers). So you have already been proven wrong, would you like another shot?
The word "together" is not in the biblical text. You are forcing it there. If we say 'Emil and FTOS write on these forums,' it does not follow that we do it together. If I say 'Emil and FTOS write on these forums. 144000 also writes,' it does not follow that Emil and FTOS are of one category while 144000 is of another category.
Your logic is further proven wrong in Jn 7:39 which unambiguously mentions that the Holy Spirit himself is the living water. The bride is not the living water. She is only the channel.
The bride is the collection of believers called the church. This is what the bible says in Eph 5:22-32
Ok FTOS, Here's a reason why the bride cannot be God. This is from Revelation 21:1-3
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
For you to be right that the bride is Zahng, then that would mean "a new heaven and a new earth" have already happened. Since the bride appears when there is already a "new heaven and new earth" and the old heaven and earth had passed away. It also says it came from God. Never says it IS God. And notice here it says "God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them". This hasn't happend. You claim Ash to be God then should'nt he be here? Since he is God according to you he must be here dwelling among the people. However he is not here. He is dead. According to you, we must refer to Zanhg as a "Holy City" since she's the bride in this verse. Which makes no sence seeing that she's a person. Somehow a person came down from heaven already beautifuly dressed when there was "a new heaven and new earth".
Let's read verse 4.
‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
Notice that this has yet to happen. How can you claim the bride is here and is Zahng when the things taking place in this chapter have not even happened yet? How will you explain this?
@FTOS- Let me quote you something:
It is written, ‘The Spirit and the bride said,’ (Revelation 22:17) where the bride is the same bride in Revelation 21:9-10. It is written ‘I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb,’ and the wife of the Lamb are the saints. (Revelation 19:7-8) writes ‘wedding of the Lamb has come and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.’ In another translation, ‘His bride has made herself ready and by God’s permission she wears bright and clean clothes. Fine clothes stands for the righteous acts of God’s people.’
Guess who wrote that?
fromtheotherside wrote:
It's already been disproved that the bride is a collection of Believers, also it's been proved that the one's who hear and say come are those said believers. If the bride is not the one to give or neither the source than the Holy spirit is neither, but that is not true so your statement is again out the window, we already proved our point by showing you the sequence of order, of that verse, 1. the spirit and bride (together say come) 2 those who hear (believers). So you have already been proven wrong, would you like another shot?
The verse is not about the source of the living water. It's about the invitation to come and get it. The wmscog has inserted the meaning that it's about the source, but it's not. The source of the living water is addressed in other verses. This verse is simply an invitation.
You cannot accuse FTOS of forcing anything, it is you who are intolerant of other people’s beliefs. It is you who is forcing your beliefs where they do not belong. Even we go away and leave people be to believe what they choose after we can say with clear concience that we “tried”. We are only responding now to defend ourselves against your continued hatred.
There are many times in the bible where god uses the husband-wife analogy in comparison to faith.
There is a place where he calls the people his bride. There is a place hwere he calls a single prophet his bride. There is a place where he calls that prophet’s mother his bride, there is a place where he calls the whole nation his bride, and there is a place where he says that the church is like his bride, and there is a place where he says that an entirely different bride than all of the previous brides listted before is coming DOWN out of heaven, the new jerusalem.
This is not twelve literal gates of gold and precious stones that are going to crash down to earth. It is a person, the one who sat on God’s throne with the appearance of jasper.
There are parts which are literal such as “the woman” and “the bride” and “she is our mother”.
There are parts which are metaphorical such as mother being described as the city we dwell in.
There are commandments which are physical such as marriage adultery.
There are prophecies which are spiritual such as God the Mother being the bride of God.
Understanding when and where metaphors begin and wend, and where physical things end and spiritual things begin, is what you people are failing to do.
For if you could understand, than your advice would not contradict the hundred other places God compares a variety of things to being his bride, which all seem to contradict if anyone were to humor your “interpretations”.
Your lack of understanding corners you more than any triumphant bragging you pretend applies to us.
Also note, it is the new Jerusalem not the old jerusalem. It is not a preexisting people it is a new person who is only to be revealed in the last days.
It is not people or churches on earth but something that comes DOWN out of heaven TO earth, meaning, it has never before existed on earth until its appointed time of revelation in the last days.
I have a question 😛
If we assume Ahn fulfilled prophesies showing that he is the second coming, how do you know who is Mother?
Who is the new Jerusalem and why is it Zahng? Why not Kim Yu-na? Or any other korean woman for that matter?
Is it ONLY because she's his wife?
144000 wrote:
Understanding when and where metaphors begin and end, and where physical things end and spiritual things begin, is what you people are failing to do.
Are you talking to yourself?
You may want to try "orthotomeo" in 2 Timothy 2:15 and test that against clouds = flesh. Next stop, folks, is the group teaching that cutting words from clouds to flesh is accurate…when it is clearly not and also is what all destructive groups do because it alters thinking, processing, and auditing of one's own thoughts. Thus, the process becomes internal. Cloning process complete. Checkmate to the member and also to loved ones that want to help them.
144000 wrote:
You cannot accuse FTOS of forcing anything, it is you who are intolerant of other people's beliefs. It is you who is forcing your beliefs where they do not belong.
Let us start with "all churches that use the cross are bad".
this equals a monopoly on the souls of those who believe this illusion of choice.
The process being put to you is so genius, its not even fair.
Shift the goalposts more. This one’s for you emil, I didn’t bring up clouds or crosses. You guys just did.
It is absolutetly typical of you people to backpedal and argue about something else as soon as your forced interpretations are exposed.
As for your tangent we have already given our answer and we stick to the bible. Did the angel say “keep looking at the clouds, it is a good idea”? Did apostle paul say “now here is a physical cross I’m going to put it over Gods altar”? No, they did not, stop adding things to the bible and then presume to judge us.
I gave my answer about the bride and Father and Mother have exposed your contradictions.
A New Heaven and a New Earth
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Even if this event were referencing a person, Zhang, this will not occur in our lifetime. Revelation 20 discusses the 1,000 years and the events that will occur during that time. Right after that in chapter 21 it says…"Then I saw"…meaning there are some events that occur before the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God.
So to clarify my point…the events in chapter 20 will occur over a period of 1,000 years, then there will be a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away (meaning that they will be destroyed). We know the world will be destroyed 2Peter 3:8-10
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
So even if new Jerusalem was a female bride of God, she is in the wrong time period.
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