- CreatorTopic
- December 27, 2012 at 8:54 AM#7045SimonParticipant
The WMSCOG/Ahn Sahng Hong teaches that the Sabbath was restored in 1844 by the Seventh Day Adventist Church. If Ahn Sahng Hong is God how did he not know about the Seventh Day Baptist Church founded in 1650?
http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/content/history
- December 27, 2012 at 7:17 PM #50004
KFParticipantcorrect me if I'm wrong but the 7 day adventist and the 7 day baptist are 2 different churches???
Was their name changed over time? are they both by the same founder?
December 27, 2012 at 7:32 PM #50005
SimonParticipantfrom the website:
Seventh Day Baptists date their origin with the mid-17th century separatist movement in England. With the renewed emphasis on the Scriptures for Free Church doctrine and practice, men such as James Ockford, William Saller, Peter Chamberlain, Francis Bampfield, Edward and Joseph Stennett concluded that the keeping of the seventh day Sabbath was an inescapable requirement of biblical Christianity. Some maintained membership within the Baptist fellowship and simply added the private Sabbath observance to their other shared convictions. As the power of the state was used to enforce conformity to a common day of worship, separation became necessary. The first separate church of record was the Mill Yard church founded about 1650 in London.
SDA was founded in the United States by Ellen Gould White in 1844 at the end of the Millerite Movement and the Great Dissapointment as WMSCOG teaches but they are inccorect in claiming she restored the Sabbath, I believe even their own history claims inspiration from SDBs
December 27, 2012 at 9:08 PM #50006
KCParticipantThe Jews already and still is doing the Sabbath since long loooong time before Ash came around, but then again i guess from wmscog point of view “Christian ” is catholic.
December 27, 2012 at 9:20 PM #50007
KFParticipantHal wrote:
Well neither really restored anything. Judaism still maintained a 7th day shabbat.
yes Hal, that is what I tell my friend, but his answer is (as he was taught by wmscog) that the Jewish ppl keep the O.T. passover therefore they are wrong. Also that they killed Jesus, therefore they do not follow his ways.
tell me something Hal, How does Judasim keep the passover, do they slaughter A LAMB till this day, keeping the O.T. or is the wmscog wrong?
Can you please tell us how the celebration goes, and most important of all to me the Appointed Time to celebrated the PassOver.
December 28, 2012 at 3:53 AM #50008
jellybeanParticipantYeshua was God in the flesh the Messiah and you guys missed it…and Your ancestors took his blood on their children (meaning the descendants including all the Jews that live today) thats why the Kingdom of Heaven was not promised to the Jews specifically(and only) but to all who believed in him. I dont mean to insult you by that and I understand your belief however I was not able to keep that quiet. That fact shakes many Jews who believe in God because in their mind, "What about if he was God in the flesh?" would mean oh no we failed to obey JHV. You do not read the new testament not because is not part of your culture and how you were raised, the reason why you do not study it is because you do not want to. The crazy part is that JHV gave to the Jews so many details about JHV's plans and as humans yet they failed because guess what? We are not perfect beings and we can never be like God, we can never think like God and we can never imagine the plans of God. Is out of our reach.
December 28, 2012 at 4:11 AM #50009
KFParticipantThanks, Hal
you just made me realize something, (I know you don't believe in the N.T. but since I do, now everything makes more sense to me) in regards to the temple not being rebuilt and The Jews not being able to slaughter the lamb outside the temple….Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law but to fullfill it. In a christians eye, Jesus was the scarifice lamb, therefore fullfilling the law, when he was crucified.So there is no need for a new temple. However did the law end there and then started all over again a different way, when he ressurected?
Also Hal when you say the appointed time is at sundown, do you eat and drink exactly after sundown or is there a specific time like 7:00 pm 7:30 pm or 8:00 pm etc. I believe my friend told me they do the foot washing 7:00pm, then they pray then they eat and drink the wine at around 8:00 pm
is that the correct time or can it be anytime after sundown, but before midnight? and would it make a difference if it was done a minute early or a minute late?
and what if someone (like members who left who believe in the passover) where to celebrate the passover in their homes, would God accept it, where in the bible does it say it must be done in the church.
Why did Jesus celebrate the passover in Mark's upper room instead of the synagogue with other people????
December 28, 2012 at 5:03 AM #50010
SimonParticipantHal wrote:
Well neither really restored anything. Judaism still maintained a 7th day shabbat.
That is really a strawman argument
December 28, 2012 at 5:07 AM #50011
SimonParticipantHal wrote:
Well there is no "New Testament" for us because Yeshua was a man who violated the Torah. One can not be a "diety" claim that he is the messiah and free us from a law.
Judaism, keeps Pesach (or HagHaMatzo, the official name for the Holiday) as noted by the Torah. We can not slaughter the lamb outside of the Temple becasuse it would violate G-d's law on sacrifice. However there are some jews who do slaughter the lamb as do the Cutheans (aka Samaritans).
The appointed time is sundown based upon the wording in Breshit (Genesis) on the 14th Day of the 1st month (noted as either being Aviv or Nissan).
There is no command to sacrifice it in the Temple, furthermore the command is between the settings (3 pm according to http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11934-passover-sacrifice)
December 28, 2012 at 8:25 AM #50012
SimonParticipantexcept the command was in your own home
December 28, 2012 at 10:13 AM #50013
emilParticipantHal wrote:
http://faithstrengthened.org/FSpart1chapter19.html
I also do not believe that Yeshua resurrected. Either he did not die on the cross or someone read too much Greek mythology…
The one thing that assures me that he did die and was resurrected is the fact that it would take a good number of conspirators to arrange for the deception. And yet his closest associates were willing to die as witnesses.
December 28, 2012 at 3:16 PM #50014
ttrParticipantHal wrote:
Well there is no "New Testament" for us because Yeshua was a man who violated the Torah. One can not be a "diety" claim that he is the messiah and free us from a law.
why could God not free you from the law?
December 28, 2012 at 3:24 PM #50015
ttrParticipantHal wrote:
There is no commandment to go to any sort of Synagogue on any holiday. Yeshua could of never went to a Synagogue because they just did not exist. Synagogue is a greek word for assembly. A House Of Prayer is a Bet Midresh would of been available.
I think it says He went to a synagogue (gathering) and not a Synagogue (building which didn't exist).
http://biblos.com/luke/4-16.htm
December 28, 2012 at 3:33 PM #50016
SimonParticipantActually there were actual building devoted to worship at Jesus's time and the writters chose to use the word synagogue for them, there actually is a building in capernum as referenced that served the purpose of what we call synagogues.
December 28, 2012 at 3:50 PM #50017
ttrParticipantHal wrote:
The Gospel itself refutes their opinion, for in Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus says to his disciples, "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law or the Prophets; I am not come to destroy but to fulfill; for verily I say unto you, till Heaven and earth pass one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all is fulfilled;" "Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven."
oh boy.. it would take hours to go through all of this, and I only have time for a few comments:
this is a verse I also hear the WMS bring up, and I think the subtlety of the language is missed by many well meaning people, so I want to comment on it.
There are at least two ways to reconcile a debt. One way is for your creditor to write off your debt and wipe the slate clean–in other words to cancel or abolish it. Another way is for the debt to be payed in full–or fulfill it.
When Jesus says He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, He is not saying the Law will remain, but that He will pay the price for sin in full–or fulfill the debt of the law as opposed to simply cancelling the debt. In both cases, the debt disappears, but there is a difference in how that is accomplished.
That being said, as Christians we believe that Jesus kept the moral teaching of the Law in the NT even though He abrogated the ceremonial law.
Hal wrote:
The Christians themselves must admit that Jesus and his Apostles were circumcised; for we find that Paul circumcised his disciple, Timotheus, as is recorded in the Acts 16:3, which fact proves, according to their own statement, that the law was not abolished even after the existence of Jesus.
The verse they cite doesn't prove what they want it to. That verse says Paul had to do this because of the Jews:
Acts 16:3 – Him Paul would have to go along with him: and taking him he circumcised him, because of the Jews who were in those places. For they all knew that his father was a Gentile.
Paul confirms elsewhere His opinion on circumcision:
Galatians 5:2 – Behold, I Paul tell you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
and the law:
Ephesians 2:14-16 – For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, the enmities in his flesh: Making void the law of commandments contained in decrees; that he might make the two in himself into one new man, making peace; And might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, killing the enmities in himself.
December 28, 2012 at 4:01 PM #50018
ttrParticipantHal wrote:
Yeshua's sacrifice was illegal becuase of the fact he allowed a Goy (gentile) to preformer the sacrifice (ie being nailed to the cross then punctured with the Spear Of Destiny). Also G-d has stated that G-d detests human sacrifice and suicide.
Jesus was tried and sentenced to death by the High Priest.
As Christians, we believe Jesus was not merely human.
If I jump in front of a bus for you, it is not a suicide, it is me laying down my life for you.
John 10:17-18 – Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
December 28, 2012 at 5:15 PM #50019
Love'n HoneyParticipantBut if you jump in front of the bus, you must save someones life for it not to be suicide. In jesus case, he died so we wouldn’t die.. though we still die.
As for the sabbath.. interesting.
December 28, 2012 at 5:50 PM #50020
ttrParticipantrenita.payno wrote:
But if you jump in front of the bus, you must save someones life for it not to be suicide.
You need only the intention to save the person's life. If you fail in your efforts, the act is still meritorious.
renita.payno wrote:
In jesus case, he died so we wouldn't die.. though we still die.
I think you may be confusing physical life with spiritual life. As Christians, we do not believe Christ's sacrifice on the cross saves us from physical death:
Hebrews 9:27 – And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:
December 28, 2012 at 10:56 PM #50021
Love'n HoneyParticipantGod already had a face.. you’re just not allowed to see it or you’ll die.
December 29, 2012 at 1:23 PM #50022
SimonParticipantrenita.payno wrote:
But if you jump in front of the bus, you must save someones life for it not to be suicide. In jesus case, he died so we wouldn't die.. though we still die.
As for the sabbath.. interesting.
It is pretty clear without any WMSCOG or any other church's for that matter teaching that he is talking about something other than physical death.
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