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This question is not to offend anyone, and please if you answer, try to do so without being biased. First, I’d like to commend all who sincerely are trying to expose false doctrine to the best of their God given ability, knowing that one day God will reward them for the many brothers and sister that end up not being left behind ( and I don’t mean as in the “Left Behind” movie).
Secondly, we have been going on these debates with various points to prove what is and what isn’t; So, if 50% truth , assuming is mixed with 50% deceit, should the truth overshadow the deceit? In other words, should the 50% truth throw away the 50% deceit? Will God say, “we’ll done my good and faithful servant for teaching half truth and half deceit?” Or, will God say, “I am all truth and no deception exists in me?” If you believe it is ok to preach or teach both ,wether inadvertently or not, then by that, we can assume it is ok to continue with these organizations, right? If you disagree, then why? Why not let our loved ones continue to receive the 50% deceit? After all, they are getting 50% truth? (If your focus is on whether they are false or not, satanic or not, God or not, then you have missed the question entirely). It is on 50% truth and 50% deceit from a biblical stand point.
Satan can show someone the beauties of life and even offer to give it to you, but doubts and question come to mind. why doubt? why not take it? There obviously is a reason one won’t, regardless of who does. Jesus or God, if you please, can also show someone the beauties of life and even offer to give it to him and most may take it without a blink. Why? Why not take from Satan also, after all they are both offering the same. Or are they not?
Saul/Paul persecuted Christians out of ignorance, but the Bible tells us he sold out to the gospel of Jesus Christ when he became saved (paraphrase). Why wouldn’t he continue killing (“killing” spiritually and physically)and spreading the gospel?
Please educate or enlighten me on these question as I am willing to learn.
Sarah2013 wrote:
I understand where you are coming from. I'm actually enjoying this while I sit on the patio drinking my coffee. My dear, you are right in saying we can't be perfect. I don't believe we will ever be here on earth. Yes, very true. But don't you think striving is better than not striving? Don't you think, if people start a church just to gain money while distorting the bible is a sin? Do you feel, without repentance, or sometime even a public apology for such deceit, that God will be ok with all that? I don't think so. What do you think friend?
1. I have greater satifaction when I work hard for what I've received. I have a low satisfaction for things that worked very little or very hard for.
2. I think when people distort the bible for any reason is a sin.
3. I think apologies are skin deep. You never know if you've actually repented until you die.
MountainMom wrote:
Not seeing that, Renita. I think she's saying she's not perfect, so more a humble statement. Or a joke. We need to laugh sometimes about this thing once in a while because the alternative is to cry. And some of us have done all of that we can endure already.
I don't like her calling me 'sister' or 'friend' or asking me questions like 'do you think distorting the bible for money is ok?' Of course not! When have I suggested that.
MountainMom wrote:
Not seeing that, Renita. I think she's saying she's not perfect, so more a humble statement. Or a joke. We need to laugh sometimes about this thing once in a while because the alternative is to cry. And some of us have done all of that we can endure already.
I don't like her calling me 'sister' or 'friend' or asking me questions like 'do you think distorting the bible for money is ok?' Of course not! When have I suggested that.
emil wrote:
Renita once you get into the realm of "white" lies it becomes a matter of justifying the lie. I believe that is a very dangerous situation to be in.
Sarah2013 re: your question about God allowing or doing something, I believe like Stained that God does not do any evil. He does however, allow it for His own purpose. The book of Job is a good illustration of God allowing evil for a time to befall Job.
I also do not subscribe to the view that God orchestrates all our deeds. I believe we are still free to choose He knows our choice in advance. If this is incorrect then we cannot believe in a loving God. In that case we have to accept that God created some people for heaven and others for hell.
Very, but not always. But it definitely can be.
emil wrote:
Renita once you get into the realm of "white" lies it becomes a matter of justifying the lie. I believe that is a very dangerous situation to be in.
Sarah2013 re: your question about God allowing or doing something, I believe like Stained that God does not do any evil. He does however, allow it for His own purpose. The book of Job is a good illustration of God allowing evil for a time to befall Job.
I also do not subscribe to the view that God orchestrates all our deeds. I believe we are still free to choose He knows our choice in advance. If this is incorrect then we cannot believe in a loving God. In that case we have to accept that God created some people for heaven and others for hell.
Very, but not always. But it definitely can be.
Ok, Renita, I see what you were referring to. I know that you don't agree with distorting the Bible for money, or a lot of other things you may have seen happening. And I feel like you aren't the type of person who would sit still for that, either. Neither is Sarah. I think you are both two very brave women, from what I have read in your posts.
You two are a lot more alike than different. Sometimes in this type of venue instead of face to face, things come out differently to the reader than what we intend. That is why I think it would be good for those of us who want to, to meet in person, in a kind of gathering where we can sit down and talk. No misunderstandings. And to tell you the truth, it would be therapeutic for me. The more I talk to people, the better I am able to cope with this situation which has hijacked our lives.
MountainMom wrote:
Ok, Renita, I see what you were referring to. I know that you don't agree with distorting the Bible for money, or a lot of other things you may have seen happening. And I feel like you aren't the type of person who would sit still for that, either. Neither is Sarah. I think you are both two very brave women, from what I have read in your posts.
You two are a lot more alike than different. Sometimes in this type of venue instead of face to face, things come out differently to the reader than what we intend. That is why I think it would be good for those of us who want to, to meet in person, in a kind of gathering where we can sit down and talk. No misunderstandings. And to tell you the truth, it would be therapeutic for me. The more I talk to people, the better I am able to cope with this situation which has hijacked our lives.
I do have to apologize to her though. When she said "Sister" it just took me back to being in the WMSCOG and reminded me how we all called each other 'brother' or 'sister' instead of using our names.
emil wrote:
Renita once you get into the realm of "white" lies it becomes a matter of justifying the lie. I believe that is a very dangerous situation to be in.
I think justififying "white" lies is perfectly okay. I'll provide some examples:
If someone asks me the following questions:
Do you like this chicken sandwich?
Truthful Answer: No, it tastes attrocious!
White Lie: Oh, its delicious!
Isn't my grandson so cute:
Truthful answer: No, he looks like an ugly monkey.
White Lie: Oh, he's adorable!
Does this dress look good on me:
Truthful answer: Hell no! It does not flatter your shape.
White lie: That dress looks beautiful on you.
Now I think the rightful answers to these questions would take some sound judgment. Notice, I said "rightful," which is a little different from truth or a lie. As for question number one- to be honest, I'm not sure what the correct answer would be. It might depend on the person's personality. Woud I hurt their feelings if I told them that I didn't like their chicken sandwich, or would they be okay with me telling them that I honestly did not like it. My response would be based on their personality. Now as for question 2, I certainly know better than to call someone's child ugly, unless I'm wanting to get punched in the face or something (and deservedly). In that situation, I would probably just lie and say he's cute to save face. I can't see God wanting me to tell someone that their child is not cute, even if I don't think that they are. We are probably all beautiful to God anyway or all equally unbeautiful to him. I actually kinda think the latter more than the former. Now as far as the third question, I would actually be more inclined to give an honest answer. I think the recipient would most likely appreciate honestly in that type of situation. While I wouldn't say, "hell no, it makes you look fat," I might say, " I don't think that dress really does you any justice. I think you should wear a different one." I do believe that we are to consider people feelings in all that we say and do. I would argue that the true intentions in your heart, are actually what make something a sin or not.
HAHAHA!! Ugly monkey.. I've seen some of those in real life.
Liberty – I kind of agree those examples look fine to me. My point is that there would be a point at which a "white" lie is an attitude of justification for any lie if the truth is inconvenient.
I refer to an example like telling a lie about something, say another church, even though you know it is a lie. You can justify that because you genuinely believe that church is leading people astray and it is your duty to save those people. So it justifies your lie. What do you think about that situation? Would that be a white lie?
I wouldn't describe that situation as a white lie. That would be an outright lie- that person is intentionally putting down another organization (falsely) to make their own look better. Even if the intentions are good- I think it would be better for the person to find a different method.
I think most lies are told because the truth is inconvenient, rather it be a "white" lie or an "outright" lie. Even though it can be argued that a lie is a lie, I think some lies are definitely more harmfu/malicious/wrong than others.
Exactly what I'm saying. Many people would lie for convenience and justify it as a white lie because their intentions are noble in their own estimation.
I think when it comes to when it's 'ok' to lie, that depends on what morals you have.
I am going to voice my disappointment here. A "white lie" is nothing more than a lie. I understand the desire not to hurt someones feelings or trying to avoid an uncomfortable situation but this is still lying and none of it is justifyable.The examples above don't seem right. Even the ugly monkey one is not cool. Your answer doesn't have to be a lie in order to be tactful. Folks, don't stoop to lying and don't try to justify lying. It's better to not agree about something than to lie. Be kind with your words as you do hold the power of life and death in your words. People do expect a certain amount of honesty when they ask you a question. Strive to be like Jesus or else you will be like everybody else.
Isn't my grandson so cute:
Tactful answer that is also truthful: He does seem to have a personality all his own.
I was sworn to secretcy when I was active duty. If someone wanted to know something I wasn't supposed to share, I would say 'NTKB' [Need To Know Basis]. If they kept bugging I would tell them something that sounds super believable with award winning ethusiam. Not too much because then they'll know I'm lying. But now they're satisfied and my secret is still a secret.
My favorite lie was when I asked my mom if she got me Yukon Limo. She said no. A couple hours later, a yukon limo came to pick us up for my birthday.
The bible doesn't say not to lie. It says not to bear false witness. 'The Father and the Son as my witness' because we know nothing is true without 2 witnesses [sarcasm] 'I am 27 years old.' Not only did I lie… but I practically swore to God that I was telling the truth. 'Jesus said it's ok to slap your brother as long as he deserved it.' There I go again.. breaking that commandment. My vomit and I have a very intimate relationship. [more sarcasm]
My point is the truth isn't always better when you're dealing with miniscule things like a birthday surprise.
Hypothetically:::
Because I 'believe' in God, if I answer the enemy truthfully which will contribute to the death of millions of people probably the start of WWIII, I'll be ok because I'm saved. And those whose houses are being bombed will be ok too…. given they're saved as well. Is that what I'm supposed to think? I wasn't given any information that secret but there are people who hold those secrets. Are we supposed to be ok with them answering the enemy with the truth? Sometimes to get a monkey off your back you have to give them a placebo. And if I'm the spawn of satan because I believe in protecting someone's feelings, surprise, or even their life then so be it.
Sorry for the extensive response but this world would be way worse if it hadn't been for a few lies, white or any other color.
renita.payno wrote:
The bible doesn't say not to lie. It says not to bear false witness.
Except that the Bible does say "do not lie."
Such as in Leviticus 19:11 and Colossians 3:9.
Liberty wrote:
emil wrote:
Renita once you get into the realm of "white" lies it becomes a matter of justifying the lie. I believe that is a very dangerous situation to be in.
I think justififying "white" lies is perfectly okay. I'll provide some examples:
If someone asks me the following questions:
Do you like this chicken sandwich?
Truthful Answer: No, it tastes attrocious!
White Lie: Oh, its delicious!
Isn't my grandson so cute:
Truthful answer: No, he looks like an ugly monkey.
White Lie: Oh, he's adorable!
Does this dress look good on me:
Truthful answer: Hell no! It does not flatter your shape.
White lie: That dress looks beautiful on you.
Obviously, these are tough ones. When broken down, however, we must understand the process. Are we answering "politely" because we are uncomfortable telling the other person the truth? Perhaps there is some middle ground if we are being polite other than telling people their kids look like ugly monkeys, but the point is made above nonetheless. But again, when we make decisions that we feel are in the best interests of others, and we monopolize the flow of information (think soft food/hard food) without commonly held social norms held between both parties, then we participate in a form of deception whether we like to admit it or not. If there is a societal norm not to tell friends and spouses they look fat and compliment them in some way (or work in such a way as the other chooses a more complimenting outfit) and this is well understood between both parties, then there is a form of understanding between the two parties which would be a good argument against one person deceiving the other.
Thoughts?
Joshua wrote:
I am going to voice my disappointment here. A "white lie" is nothing more than a lie. I understand the desire not to hurt someones feelings or trying to avoid an uncomfortable situation but this is still lying and none of it is justifyable.The examples above don't seem right. Even the ugly monkey one is not cool. Your answer doesn't have to be a lie in order to be tactful. Folks, don't stoop to lying and don't try to justify lying. It's better to not agree about something than to lie. Be kind with your words as you do hold the power of life and death in your words. People do expect a certain amount of honesty when they ask you a question. Strive to be like Jesus or else you will be like everybody else.
Isn't my grandson so cute:
Tactful answer that is also truthful: He does seem to have a personality all his own.
But that is exactly the point. The truth isn't always tactful! "He does seem to have a personality all his own," does not answer the question. I'd be like "WTH" if someone said that to me. Talk about blatant avoidance! Nor is it a completely honest response. "Is my grandson cute?" is pretty much a yes or no answer. I either have to lie or I don't.
I think Jesus would tell them, "Don't ask a question like that in the first place if you don't want to hear the truth."
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