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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9fLS7-ZSGg
I don't know if everyone heard of this yet but it's new for me.
Well actually the Pope didn't actually challenge Christmas nearly as much as people are saying. It has been the Catholic Church position for a very long time that December 25th wasn't the actual birthday and that Jesus was really born in the time frame the pope stated, he was merely clarifying for the world.
Hal wrote:
The Vatican actually allowed its celebration until the 1800's by force feeding Italian jews and then forcing them to be chased in the streets of Rome.
Hal, do you have a source for this?
Hal wrote:
ttr wrote:
Hal wrote:
The Vatican actually allowed its celebration until the 1800's by force feeding Italian jews and then forcing them to be chased in the streets of Rome.
Hal, do you have a source for this?
http://www.carnaval.com/saturnalia/
ttr, bottom of the page. I have bolded here.
Some of the most depraved
thank you for the link. i am finding different information on the Internet. of course, I am not looking on anti-catholic sites either. while it does seem there were races, it appears that they were intended to be good-natured and that the Jews enjoyed them at first:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/4057-carnival
On Tuesdays Jews raced for a prize of valuable robes ("pallia"). The races were not supposed to degrade the participants, but were merely a part of the program. The Jews ran in red cloaks, which all, save physicians, had to wear. No contestant was to be older than twenty years, and the entire community had to contribute toward the expenses. […] At first the Jews enjoyed these contests.
as with almost anything human though, abuses apparently crept in (later in that same article):
Later, however, they were subjected to all sorts of cruelties by the populace; and in 1547 a Jew died during the progress of a race.
that being said, that same article states that Pope Clement IX put a stop to the races and imposed a tax during the parade instead:
Finally, on Jan. 28, 1668, Pope Clement IX. ordered that the Jews be no longer made the sport of the populace, but that a yearly tax of 300 scudi be collected instead.
and finally another Pope Pius IX put a complete end to it:
This annual procession soon drew upon itself the scorn of the populace, and on several occasions the Jewish deputies were badly treated. It was continued, however, up to the accession of Pius IX. (1846).
As regards that particular quote on Pope Paul II from the original article cited, I don't see any accurate historical reference for it anywhere. I did find this interesting analysis though which says it may have been a bit of historical fiction:
http://japollard.wordpress.com/project-notes/
Either way, as Pope Bendict the XVI has said "there are both good and bad fish in the Lord's net." I think if you look for sins among men, you will find them anywhere, in any church or organization, because people are sinners. I don't think it proves one church right or wrong based upon the sins of its people. That's an ad hominem.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
I am getting a lot of different reactions about this Christmas stuff. When I've told people that it was formerly a pagan festival and told the specifics, some were aghast and are considering of not celebrating Xmas for its horrid history and some were stating that "we are celebrating the birth of Jesus and is not commemorating some pagan activities at all".
I am still unsure which side to take but let me clarify first… Hal, is this "Festival of Saturnalia" story true? Since I've only discovered it through internet I am not sure of its authenticity.
Elievalkyrie,
Calm down and research for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
These polemics have been flying around for centuries. Nothing new under the sun. 😀
The wmscog already has a video out about it. I heard 2 brothers in class talking about it.
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