Passover communion east and west and Quartodecimanism

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  • #7074
    Simon
    Participant

    looks like cog is half right and half wrong . prior to nicea some churches kept Passover others Sundays for the bread and wine and until nicea they got on fine in full communion with each other. it appears John had a differing take from Peter and Paul but they were brothers who walked with Jesus just the same why can’t we do likewise?

  • #51160

    ChurchDestroyer101
    Participant

    emil wrote:

     

    The WMSCOG is wrong about what they call the PO. They are wrong to say that the PO (as they see it) was abolished in the 4th century. The passover was never celebrated their way. For Christians, it was the Lord's passion.

    Then how do the catholics celebrate the passover, and what do they call them? I'm a catholic but ever since I got involved into that blasphemous cult, I don't know much about the catholic teachings anymore.

    #51161

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    Emil-

    I was reading Chapter 2 of Ash's forbidden book and he gave an explanation (similar to yours) for a bible passage regarding Easter. He said there was a dispute amongst the early churches as to when Easter was to be held. Was it 3 days after Jesus' death or the 1st Sunday after Jesus death. Ash explained that Paul didn't see that as important and told the churches to choose which one they wanted. This is after Ash had nothing but good things to say about Paul and his revelations. He also called it Easter. I'm having a hard time digesting this.

    1) If Ash was God, why would he call the Feast of First Fruits Easter? The members know well enough to never call the Feast of FF Easter because it's not the same. So why would God do it?

    2) The WMSCOG says it's very important to understand and keep the appointed times at the appointed times. The Feast of FF has an appointed time, IAW the "church". But Ash explained that Paul didn't see it as important. He must have received this judgement from Christ to being passing it along to the churches. Gal 1:11-12 This tells me the appointed times and/or the Feast of FF isn't as important as the WMSCOG makes them seem.

    3) If Ash was God and if Paul was incorrect in his judgement, why didn't Ash set the record straight? Maybe he did later in the book and I just need to keep reading. But I've read many of Ash's books and have had many bible studies regarding the Feasts. It was always relayed to me that this issue of when Easter (Feast of FF) was to be kept didn't occur until after the last Apostle, A. John, died in 106 AD.

    #51162

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    Destroyer-

    From what I hear, the Catholic churches have their own way of celebrating it. It varies to greatly to give an exact answer.

    #51163

    ChurchDestroyer101
    Participant

    Love'n Honey wrote:

    Destroyer-

    From what I hear, the Catholic churches have their own way of celebrating it. It varies to greatly to give an exact answer.

    then give me that exact answer. What exactly does it take to be a good christian?

    #51164

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    Destroyer-

    Please understand the following as this is the simplest way I can answer your question. I cannot tell you the exact answer to how the Catholic church keeps their PO because different Catholic churches keep it differently. From once a year to daily.

    What does it take to be a good Christian? I think the best Christians are the ones who are not Christians. Lol.

    #51165

    emil
    Participant

    ChurchDestroyer101 wrote:

     

    so, they were arguing about where they should place the lord's death on the cross and what calendar they should use?

    Sorry, I've been on vacation and not accessing the internet at all.

    This is not an authoritative answer to your question but a best effort on my part. The Catholic Church uses the name Pasche for the resurrection as well as for the entire Triduum (Thursday, Friday and the Saturday night service). The name is derived from the Passover but is not the same as the Jewish passover. After Christianity spread to Western Europe, the German and English language name Easter started being used for the resurrection in those countries. The name later spread throughout the English speaking world. It is still restricted mainly to the English speaking countries. All others, which is the majority, use variants of the name Pasche for the resurrection.

    For us Christians, the new passover signifies our freedom from sin and death (contrasting with the Israelites freedom from Egyptian slavery) brought about by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross (compared to the old sacrifice of the unblemished lamb). The passover is not the partaking of the body and blood of Jesus.

    Speaking about the quartodeciman controversy, there never was a question of what event they wanted to commemorate at the passover. It was always about the death and resurrection of Jesus. The body and blood eating was a regular and not annual feature right from the early days as depicted in Acts 2. This was not part of the controversy.

    It so happened that there was disagreement about whether the death and resurrection dating would be as per the Jewish calendar or fix the date of the resurrection on a Sunday every year since the original was on a Sunday. The western churches under Peter and Paul's leadership had adopted Sunday, while the Eastern churches taught by John had been adopting the date as per the Jewish calendar.

    The difference of opinion was not considered serious enough to be a schism and both sides accepted the others difference of viewpoint.

    #51166

    ChurchDestroyer101
    Participant

    to everyone who wants to reply to my posts, can you please quote me so I can be notified by it. that would be great…

    #51167

    ChurchDestroyer101
    Participant

    emil wrote:

    ChurchDestroyer101 wrote:

     

    so, they were arguing about where they should place the lord's death on the cross and what calendar they should use?

    Speaking about the quartodeciman controversy, there never was a question of what event they wanted to commemorate at the passover. It was always about the death and resurrection of Jesus. The body and blood eating was a regular and not annual feature right from the early days as depicted in Acts 2. This was not part of the controversy.

    It so happened that there was disagreement about whether the death and resurrection dating would be as per the Jewish calendar or fix the date of the resurrection on a Sunday every year since the original was on a Sunday. The western churches under Peter and Paul's leadership had adopted Sunday, while the Eastern churches taught by John had been adopting the date as per the Jewish calendar.

    The difference of opinion was not considered serious enough to be a schism and both sides accepted the others difference of viewpoint.

    Can you specify what part of Acts 2 did they ragularly do the body and blood ritual?

    And can you simplify EXACTLY what they're arguing about that sparked the so-called controversy?

    #51168

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    Destroyer-

    I'm a rebel. =)

    #51169

    emil
    Participant

    ChurchDestroyer101 wrote:

     

    Can you specify what part of Acts 2 did they ragularly do the body and blood ritual?

    And can you simplify EXACTLY what they're arguing about that sparked the so-called controversy?

    Acts 2:42-47 – This was the Eucharistic celebration from the beginning of the church. Paul elaborates on it a bit in 1 Cor 11:17~ when he admonishes the Corinthians for misbehaviour at the Eucharistic celebration.

    The controversy was about the date on which to commemorate the events of the death and resurrection of Jesus. The church at Rome, under the tutelage of Peter and Paul had adopted a calculation based on the solar calendar to comemorate the resurrection on a Sunday closest to the original day (according to the solar year) and work back to the previous Friday for the crucifixion. The day of the week was given significance. The Eastern branch of the church, taught by John, adopted the passover day of the Jewish lunar calendar to comemorate the death of Jesus and commemorated the resurrection after that. Neither can be considered as wrong.

    However, by the standard we use to keep time today (solar calendar) the date of the Jewish passover shifted around quite a bit with reference to the spring equinox and was considered astronomically less accurate.

    #51170

    Simon
    Participant

    That sounds blasphemous to me…. 

    #51171

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    Ash didn't make a fuss about the different methods of calculation. With him being "god" I guess neither one is incorrect. But my mind tells me they both can't be right. Is it 3 days after his death or the 1st Sunday after his death? 2 very different matters that definitely should have been finalized then instead of leaving it up to the church, IMNSHO. Why wasn't it said it didn't matter? Or is this where "don't let anyone judge you by your new moon…" comes in?

    #51172

    emil
    Participant

    Simon wrote:

    That sounds blasphemous to me…. 

    I don't know what exactly you find blasphemous.

    Love'n Honey wrote:

    Ash didn't make a fuss about the different methods of calculation. With him being "god" I guess neither one is incorrect. But my mind tells me they both can't be right. Is it 3 days after his death or the 1st Sunday after his death? 2 very different matters that definitely should have been finalized then instead of leaving it up to the church, IMNSHO. Why wasn't it said it didn't matter? Or is this where "don't let anyone judge you by your new moon…" comes in?

    They both can't be the same but that does not mean any of them is wrong. It is a day of commemoration. It depends on how you keep your calendar. The Jewish calendar had 12 lunar months every year with an extra month thrown in once every few years to correct the increasing difference to the solar year. If you want to commemorate a historical event, the day on which you commemorate it would depend on which calendar you used. For instance, if you were born in a country that follows a different calendar, your birthday may well occur on a different day than it does now. Moreover, it will keep changing every year.

    #51173

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    emil wrote:

     

    Love'n Honey wrote:

    Ash didn't make a fuss about the different methods of calculation. With him being "god" I guess neither one is incorrect. But my mind tells me they both can't be right. Is it 3 days after his death or the 1st Sunday after his death? 2 very different matters that definitely should have been finalized then instead of leaving it up to the church, IMNSHO. Why wasn't it said it didn't matter? Or is this where "don't let anyone judge you by your new moon…" comes in?

    They both can't be the same but that does not mean any of them is wrong. It is a day of commemoration. It depends on how you keep your calendar. The Jewish calendar had 12 lunar months every year with an extra month thrown in once every few years to correct the increasing difference to the solar year. If you want to commemorate a historical event, the day on which you commemorate it would depend on which calendar you used. For instance, if you were born in a country that follows a different calendar, your birthday may well occur on a different day than it does now. Moreover, it will keep changing every year.

     That makes a lot of sense! But.. in the OT the Jews were moving from place to place and still kept their commemoration according to the calendar given to them by Jehovah. Has that calendar been thrown away since the OT is now "obselete"?

    #51174

    Simon
    Participant

    emil wrote:

    Simon wrote:

    That sounds blasphemous to me…. 

    I don't know what exactly you find blasphemous.

    Saying something which God designed is accurate enough

    #51175

    emil
    Participant

    ^ I guess you wanted to type a NOT before accurate in your sentence and missed it. If so, then it is also blasphemous to say that the earth rotates round the sun. It is also blasphemous to say that the earth is not flat with a heaven physivcally above it and a sheol below it.

    We must understand the biblical instructions in the context of the society in which they were given.

    I stated "astronomically accurate" because, for whatever reason known only to Him, Jehovah happens to have given humans the wisdom to figure out a solar year. A solar year will always have the seasons, harvest, etc. coming at about the same time every year. On the other hand, those who follow a pure lunar calendar of 12 lunar months, Islam for instance, will have their seasons shifting around from year to year.

    If you don't like the fact that the lunar months do not properly line up and synchronise with the solar year, you ought to take it up with the creator.

    #51176

    emil
    Participant

    Love'n Honey wrote:

     

     That makes a lot of sense! But.. in the OT the Jews were moving from place to place and still kept their commemoration according to the calendar given to them by Jehovah. Has that calendar been thrown away since the OT is now "obselete"?

    In OT times, that was the only calendar they knew. I cannot answer your last question with certainty. However, to the best of my knowledge, the Jewish calendar itself has been revamped and updated since OT times to improve sychronization with the solar year.

    The day (solar calendar) when Jesus rose was the first Sunday after the full moon after the spring equinox. Using this as our basis to date the resurrection each year is an attempt to keep it closest to the original date while still keeping it on a Sunday. I have read somewhere that in the years of the early church, there were years when the Jewish passover would actually be before the spring equinox as a result of their 354 day year which was over 11 days shorter than the solra year. Perhaps Simon can throw light on this.

    #51177

    Simon
    Participant

    emil wrote:

    ^ I guess you wanted to type a NOT before accurate in your sentence and missed it. If so, then it is also blasphemous to say that the earth rotates round the sun. It is also blasphemous to say that the earth is not flat with a heaven physivcally above it and a sheol below it.

    The Bible doesn't say those things

    We must understand the biblical instructions in the context of the society in which they were given.

    I stated "astronomically accurate" because, for whatever reason known only to Him, Jehovah happens to have given humans the wisdom to figure out a solar year. A solar year will always have the seasons, harvest, etc. coming at about the same time every year. On the other hand, those who follow a pure lunar calendar of 12 lunar months, Islam for instance, will have their seasons shifting around from year to year.

    If you don't like the fact that the lunar months do not properly line up and synchronise with the solar year, you ought to take it up with the creator.

    That they don't line up the the solar year doesn't make using the solar year acceptable that is a pagan practice.

     

    And God's calendar keeps the seasons in the same time every year as well it is a lunar/agricultural calendar and until Barley goes extinct which is very unlikely as it is one of the most resilliant plants in all of creation we should obey God rather than make up our own rules.

     

    now if we want to use a solar calendar for entirely SECULAR purposes it is of no concequence.

    #51178

    Love'n Honey
    Participant

    Simon wrote:

     

    That they don't line up the the solar year doesn't make using the solar year acceptable that is a pagan practice.

     

    And God's calendar keeps the seasons in the same time every year as well it is a lunar/agricultural calendar and until Barley goes extinct which is very unlikely as it is one of the most resilliant plants in all of creation we should obey God rather than make up our own rules.

     

    now if we want to use a solar calendar for entirely SECULAR purposes it is of no concequence.

     This, I totally agree with.

    Emil-

    I can understand if I went to China (or where ever a calendar is different) my birthday would appear to land on a different day every year. But if God instructed me to celebrate my birth on 14Nov every year, then that's what I'm going to do regardless of where I am. Arguing with God saying they don't use the same calendar is bold. Figure it out! Lol. So, I think the people who follow Jesus should calculate the celebratations according to whatever calendar Jesus used. Which one was that? Idk.. I would guess the Jewish calendar because he went to the temple during certain Feasts that were held according to that calendar.

    But, Ash pretty much said it wasn't important and he's some sort of god, you know.

    #51179

    emil
    Participant

    God gave a calendar to the Israelites in ancient times. The calendar was based on what they could observe in that phase of human evolution. I don't believe it was meant for all peoples everywhere for all time. Can one of you point out the scripture verses to support God giving us a calendar?

    I don't think even the Jews use the barley harvest as a marker any more. If they did, it would have to be an event to be observed in a limited geographical area. Hillel II established a calendar in the 4th century based on mathematical and astronomical calculations which I believe is still in use.

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