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So take it court Joshua, without proof, even testimony does not hold up. Don't compare yours or others word to that of the apostles and God, the bible is testimony from prophets moved by the holy spirit so don't even think their words are the same, as we can see with Dianes testimony PEOPLE lie. Go back and watch her "testimony" if even I can see the faults in it a lawyer would rip it apart throw it right back in her face.
48:40 Daine sounds pretty upset no one called her after she left "Not one person" Almost looks like she was really upset about it.
Diane even says the pastor called looking for her.After service hmm she was sick for four days. Guess who else Call her, the one we call Mother herself? hmm even to mock her, I wonder which is no one or some called.
So is this another one of those testimonies your talking about Joshua?
By your logic a person can claim you physically assaulted them and get a court to convict you with just their testimony, but with out the scratches and bruises there testimony is pointless, just same you need physical evidence.
fromtheotherside, I want to ask you something, a hypothetical question.
Which has your higher loyalty–God or your church? Imagine you found some absolutely clear, indisputable evidence that something was wrong with your church. Would you choose to follow God over your church despite your ties there, or dismiss the evidence and follow the church with total devotion?
You can answer in a pm instead of here in public. I don't mind.
I have to say Genny, I respect the way you worded your last paragraph.
FTOS, I've been thinking about your last reply to me, and it seemed really straight forward and honest. I have an idea that I think you should use. Take the statements from your last reply to me and work them into your recruiting attempts at the malls and such. I really think you were honest with how you summed up how you feel about people. I think you did a great job of revealing the very essence of what the attitude of the wmscog. Now, if you told people right up front what type of attitude they would be expected to take with family, friends, wives, etc., after they were in the church a while, I think I could respect that. I could respect that you told them honestly what you were about there, and what they could be expected to be like after membership as well. You know, the we are right, you are wrong, go to our church but we won't set foot in any other church stuff. You know, tell them they are worshipping demons and idols, right up front. And tell them that is your mentality, and you really don't care what they think. It really is honestly what you think, and so I don't see the problem with using it in your recruiting spiel. You don't care what they think, right?
Thanks Sarah. It's the kind of question anybody should be able to ask of themselves.
Good point, MountainMom. That is something people should know from the get go.
You are welcome, Genny.
The main thing you should tell them from the beginning is that their current relationships with their families and others they love will suffer greatly. Tell them their mothers will cry a lot and for a very long time if they join, and that some have even gone into a deep depression and had other health problems over it. Tell them they will break their parents' hearts by joining. That's the truth.
Why not really be as honest as you were in your callous and hardened reply to me? Then you really could say it was their own choice. When you spoon feed them the information a little at a time (They are babies you know and can't eat meat yet) you really are manipulating, no doubt about it. Just tell them, they deserve to know what can happen if they join. It's the right thing to do.
Yeah! no fine print! tell it like it is…Who is man to decide if a person can take it or not, some people don't have teeth and they need to swallow, no time for chewing,….. with God's will no man, nor satan can interfere!
fromtheotherside wrote:
MM it was a straight for answer it was what u wanted. You saidbI will lose things in my life, I think u have a hard time accepting the fact that there are hundereds of thousands of people like me who live happily. Do I have to paint a picture for u? I live happily with my unbelieving famly we have gatherings play golf even went to on vacation to taiwon last year, did not preach but went sightseeing, i did preach to someone in the airport but the rest of the time was with my family. Sorry to disapoint u but you guys r the only ones crying. I ve been here over 10 years now never lost anything only gained faith in god. Doesnt matter if u dont want to accept it cuz i now u will only acknowlegde slander and persucution. Thats y ure family torn because u caused it.
As for gennys question i will always choose god that s why im at the church of god!
Question: did you condition your family that if they brought up the topic of religion and faith that you would withhold time, love, and affection for them? If so, your point is moot.
Either way, go back to your family and have a comprehensive, open-minded conversation about
psychology in a group setting,
how religious conversions are obtained,
learn about the tenets of information control, phobias and other binding elements well documented by professionals such as Hassan, et al,
and then come back here after performing your due diligence.
To put MM in a position of blame-the-victim is quite indicative of your thought processes; ie, simple anecdotal justifications.
My family conditioned me that whenever we talk about religion it is only about how great God and Jesus is, period. So, I don't talk about religion with them.
FTOS, I am happy to see your reply to Genny, that you would choose God. Now the problem is, you need to be open to the indisputable evidence that makes it so the wmscog can't stand up to scrutiny. There are discrepancies. They exist. They are blatant. Genny has done an absolutely fabulous job of exposing them. And she does it in the nicest way possible, which makes me have all the respect in the world for her. It isn't always easy, as you and I know.
fromtheotherside wrote:
As for gennys question i will always choose god that s why im at the church of god!
Ok. So what would you do if you found something highly questionable in the WMSCOG, something that appeared in error and you couldn't find a solution?
Thanks, MountainMom. I am blessed to know you. Wish we lived near enough to get together for tea. 🙂
You are welcome, and I wish the same!
And I guess I should add, FTOS, that you are wrong. People here aren't the only ones crying/unhappy. My relative in the church is very obviously unhappy and unenthusiastic about going there. I sense he feels trapped there in many ways. He has told his Dad that many people there aren't happy. He just thinks he has to go, and he doesn't, really.
fromtheotherside wrote:
As for gennys question i will always choose god that s why im at the church of god!
You do realize that there are probably 100s of churches out there calling themselves "the church of God"?
The name means nothing if the god in the title is not the real God. Just saying.
I would also like to add this: I too admire Genny for the time and effort she has spent in research, her intellectual capacity and her non-confrontational approach in focussing on issues rather than personalities.
fromtheotherside wrote:
MM it was a straight for answer it was what u wanted. You saidbI will lose things in my life, I think u have a hard time accepting the fact that there are hundereds of thousands of people like me who live happily. Do I have to paint a picture for u? I live happily with my unbelieving famly we have gatherings play golf even went to on vacation to taiwon last year, did not preach but went sightseeing, i did preach to someone in the airport but the rest of the time was with my family. Sorry to disapoint u but you guys r the only ones crying. I ve been here over 10 years now never lost anything only gained faith in god. Doesnt matter if u dont want to accept it cuz i now u will only acknowlegde slander and persucution. Thats y ure family torn because u caused it.
As for gennys question i will always choose god that s why im at the church of god!
I almost didn't respond to this post because I hate when people type "u" instead of "you." It just annoys me, and we should all know the proper way to spell." Also, shouldn't "cuz," be "because." Geez! But I guess in order to get my message across, I may have to ignore such things. So anyway, here is what I wanted to say:
I believe that FTOS's answer was honest, and I believe that he really is happy in Zion (right now). But based on his post, it seems like his experiences may be slightly different than some others.
I get the feeling that he goes to a much more laid-back Zion. I know that at the Reseda Zion, I would've been rebuked quite harshly for playing golf with a family member. All of my spare time had to be devoted to spiritual things. I had no time for myself, and I wasn't supposed to engage in any "fun" activities. Fellow members would always tell me, "What if Father came right now and saw you…..(fill in the blank- watching tv, playing a video/computer game, hanging out with friends, etc, etc). They kept telling me, "Don't get caught asleep!" It scared me nearly to death. I wanted to go to Heaven so badly! I didn't want to lose my crown, so I tried to devote as much time to Zion as possible. Also I was supposed to crucify myself and get rid of all those Earthly desires. I tried this, but it didn't work. First off- it's impossible. I wasn't taking care of my needs and I wasn't happy.
For FTOS to be a member for over 10 years- and I think he mentioned that he was a bible leader or small group leader- something like that. He would know better than playing golf in the first place.
Now for the record- I don't think that anything was wrong with him actually playing golf with his father. It sounds like a great activity. I just know that my Zion would have disapproved, so I'm surprised that his doesn't. If I could've played golf, or engage in fun activities, then I might still be there. FTOS has it so easy! This once against reflects the inconsistency in the Zion's as some are much more strict than others.
I think ridding yourself all wordly desires and such and leaving no time for yourself is unhealthy and impossible. Again that goes back to my argument of practicality vs perfection. Perfection is devoting 100% of your time to God (impossible). Practicality is devoting most of your time to God (more reasonable).
(btw- is ridding even a word, or did I make it up?)
Hi Liberty. I agree. It very well could be that FTOS is happy there at the present time. I know that my relative seemed so for a while too. But he definitely is not now, and I think he would quit if he knew how. He is afraid, I think. And FTOS can't seem to acknowledge that anyone could be unhappy there in "Zion." But my relative says there are unhappy people there in the church. And obviously with the growing group of former members, there are a lot more unhappy people in the wmscog than anyone who is actually a member now knows. They can't talk negatively or complain about discrepancies to other members or they would be rebuked, no?
It is also possible that FTOS's father in law is trying to keep the lines of communication open with him so that he can have access to his daughter's family. I know of some people who have no other option or they would not be allowed to see their grandchildren or son/daughter. I am not saying that is FTOS's case, but I have heard of it before. They go to some drastic measures if you don't agree to accept their involvement in the church, as many of you know. I also know of a member who said he would go on a water and food fast untill his wife and mother accepted his religion. It was emotional blackmail, as they were so horrified when he continued it for three days and became so sick and weak. Then, after being subjected to these tactics the relatives stop arguing with their loved one who is a member. And the member, after not having to argue with them anymore (because they are afraid to due to emotional blackmail) turns around and says everything is great in their family, his family now accepts his religion and all is wonderful. The clouds parted, the sun came out, and all the birds started singing!
Ok, I'm getting carried away, LOL! But I guess I am saying that FTOS may not know the total picture. Not everyone may be accepting of his religion, they just might be coping.
Liberty wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
I ve been here over 10 years now never lost anything only gained faith in god.
For FTOS to be a member for over 10 years- and I think he mentioned that he was a bible leader or small group leader- something like that. He would know better than playing golf in the first place.
Elsewhere he had mentioned something about starting in 2005. That isn't 10 years ago.
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