- Topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxHyZTELyFk
I think we have rattled them up. 🙂
Whenever they feel the need to produce an entire new video, I take it as a win for us.
UntouchableJ wrote:
Im convinced that battling scripture for scripture won't work,
agree. battling scripture w/ scripture doesnt work imo because its about the way a person has come to view the world, and that goes hand-in-hand with the social network around the person reinforcing closed-loop thinking. imo, its about consider this point of view from other scriptures………maybe that gets a little further than battle of bible thumping?
3 heads are still better than 1…
I have to disagree. I think you have to use scripture. The words in the bible are like a double edged sword. I say scripture for scripture. They can lie but they can’t deny scripture. You have to cut them to pieces with the words of God.
M&M:
I would have to say that's like saying that political policy, based upon facts,
that a republican will get somewhere debating with a democrat (or vice versa) based upon facts
because, the "facts" are a result of how we have come to see the world. and then we go out and defend them. battleing only hardens us to our POVs imo
JW. I see differently here. But I get your point. We shouldn’t take our church doctrines and compare to make you see that mine is right and yours is wrong. The Catholics have taken their position and the seventh day adventists have taken their position and the jehovah’s witness have taken their position and so on. Their all believe they are in the right. I’ve heard that only Catholics believe only they are saved, and the jehovah’s witness believe only they are saved. And guess what? Members of the WMSCOG believe only they are saved.
I don’t know your background but I used to be a WMSCOG member. I, like the other former members have a unique position. We know the doctrine and beliefs and ideology that surrounds WMSCOG.
Therefore since I know the teachings of ASH and mother I am in a position where I should be able to take scripture for their scripture. There are lots of scripture in the bible they either don’t know about, they don’t practice, or they purposely ignore.
I believe scripture is the way. Another good verse is Acts 17:11 and says… for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures everyday too see if what Paul said was true. We should do likewise.
We should examine the Scriptures everyday to see if what the WMSCOG said was true.
Thinking agaim, I think, IF a person battles scripture for scripture, you have to battle their “private” interpretation.
There are some ex-members who say they benefited from Biblical arguments. It varies by person what type of argument helps them see the light. I believe discussions about scriptures can work with some people.
I agree with Genny (as usual) however, basing an argument with a current member on Scripture is problematic if they are not showing strong signs of discontent with WMSCOG. I don't think you can Scripturally argue a WMSCOG victim out unless there is a corresponding willingness on their part to rationally consider the argument from both sides of the issue. With a cult victim, any kind of rational argument against cult theology is impossible, due to the intense conditioning of the cult.
That being said, a victim who has come to a certain point of exhaustion with the cult (this happens a lot!) can definitely benefit immensely from sound argument using Bible passages that clearly point to WMSCOG errors.
So I recommend to those who have high hopes of working their loved ones out with Scripture to weigh their options very carefully and approach with extreme caution. Try to ascertain where they are on the "exhaustion" scale before proceeding too rapidly with Scriptural arguments.
Very good point. I remember my mother, trying to show me evidence of the WMS nonsense. Their, “false insistences” are a subtle tactic. It gives the brainwashed member a script and a buffer, from logical thought
You would have to argue the WMS private interpretation with the bible. WMS doesn’t respect Sunday church doctrine or the catholic doctrine. WMS has labelled those churches as “babylon.” Even a little knowledge is power. Personally for me, it was the words of the bible that got me out. It took a long while for it all to sink in. But I compared the bible itself to the church doctrine. There were too many differences and lies from WMS.
Every person is different. Does the person believe the church doctrine, sermons, and teachings, over the bible?
What were the reasons for other people leaving? Were they all different? Didn’t Ron Ramos leave after finding out Mama Z and ASH had children?
@Mayor and Mike Its funny you mentioned Ron Ramos and ASH and Zang having kids. The churches new tactic is to NOT deny these things. My Ex-overseer would even bring up those points, “God is in the flesh…wouldnt God want to marry? God can do whatever he or she wants”. And because we were brainwashed NOT to question, I didnt. Even though it didnt make 1 ounce of sense.
UntouchableJ wrote:
@Mayor and Mike Its funny you mentioned Ron Ramos and ASH and Zang having kids. The churches new tactic is to NOT deny these things. My Ex-overseer would even bring up those points, "God is in the flesh…wouldnt God want to marry? God can do whatever he or she wants". And because we were brainwashed NOT to question, I didnt. Even though it didnt make 1 ounce of sense.
Yet the members would deny ever telling ex-members such as myself that they didn't have physical families. After I received the studies about the 2CC and Mother I asked very specifically is they had babies. I also asked if you cut them, would they bleed. M. Kelly thought this was an odd question. But if any of you have seen the movie El Dorado, a point was made that the gods required blood sacrifices because gods don't bleed. That's why I asked. I was told no. But.. I would have to prove I was told no since now they're telling people yes.
Love'n Honey wrote:
I also asked if you cut them, would they bleed. M. Kelly thought this was an odd question. But if any of you have seen the movie El Dorado, a point was made that the gods required blood sacrifices because gods don't bleed. That's why I asked. I was told no. But.. I would have to prove I was told no since now they're telling people yes.
speaking of movies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzt0IACxlFA
and I'm pretty sure the people there, irl, believe it…
Mayor and Mike wrote:
You would have to argue the WMS private interpretation with the bible. WMS doesn't respect Sunday church doctrine or the catholic doctrine. WMS has labelled those churches as "babylon." Even a little knowledge is power. Personally for me, it was the words of the bible that got me out. It took a long while for it all to sink in. But I compared the bible itself to the church doctrine. There were too many differences and lies from WMS.
Every person is different. Does the person believe the church doctrine, sermons, and teachings, over the bible?
What were the reasons for other people leaving? Were they all different? Didn't Ron Ramos leave after finding out Mama Z and ASH had children?
Yes, you have to argue their interpretation vs the Bible and show how it contradicts itself, not their interpretation vs your interpretation or you just go in circles.
Some reasons others have left besides Bible issues:
–realizing the behavior control
–seeing contradictions between what they teach and what they practice
–seeing contradictions such as with history or within their own teachings
–not meeting up to expectations and either being pushed out or giving up (sad at first but thankful later)
Genny, as long as we continue to talk about our experiences in WMS, it will help others in the church see the truth and get out. As long as WMS continues to lie and deceive it’s members, they will eventually come to see the truth and leave, one way or another. I’m happy to hear the testimony of Ron Ramos. His WMS experience is good know. Even after 12 years in the church, he chose to leave. Good for him
A current WMS member should have up to 1000 interpretations, explanations, and teachings about scripture. Other doctrine doesn’t stand to WMS teaching. They pull scripture about Solomon when he said “everything is meaningless,” then apply it to college and university education and say it’s “meaningless.”
Therefore, since WMS seems to only listen to the bible, I believe by the bible you can defeat them. The bible is a double edge sword.
I don’t want to explain all the WMS errors. They might learn, change their ways, and pretend like they practiced the correct way this whole time.
But I’ll give you one error. WMS insist that the day starts at sunrise. But a biblical day starts at sunset. In other words WMS only keeps half a sabbath day, depending on the season.
Untouchable, so they are changing their story? Now they say God wants to marry. Those types of lies, their control is what helped me get out. They’ll say anything won’t they? Makes me sick and tired, and happy to be out.
@mayor Yes. My old Overseer tried to equate it to the fact that God should/would want to enjoy certain aspects of being in the human experience.
Their teachings for "mother" using revelation and galatians is just clutching at thin air really, though I have realised that they have started using romans to back up their ideology. This group is quite adaptative
to M&M. i hear you on your POV with scriptures.
one of the questions on my "proposed" survey was a ranking of the 10 Commandments. all of this is anecdotal because I/we dont have the data to back it up. however, we would hypothesize that there is a relationship between scriptures and for example ostracism or even time of membership. in this way one could build a relationship with the member and get an idea of where the individual's interests are. so, if the outcome was significant between the variables of ostracism and taking Lord's name in vain, we would approach that member with a lot of caution because of the very real threat of getting cut off. I would guess keeping the Sabbath day holy is very significant with other actions. in this way, hypothetically, one could approach scripture study/debate to have effectiveness over X period of time to help the individual see the social influence around them. so what I'm saying is that it could be done through scriptures but
in general, I agree with Heinrich because unless we know that the person is open to thinking then it is like talking to a brick wall. I've been on my knees before, begging someone to listen to another POV and that conversation wasn't even about religion.
JW, you have a proposed survey? Ranking the 10 commands? Thats good. Do you have it up and running? Will you also be ranking mother’s teachings? Or is that another topic for another time?
I like the scripture approach, but you have to know what you are talking about. The other person would have to being willing to discuss of course. The purpose would be helping the current member realize the truth apart from the wms teachings, ideology, lies, “mind control.” But what you say sounds good too. Keep the line of communication open. But what would be the best way? That would depend on the person.
Maybe the person needs to be told about the korean “means,” their methods. Maybe they don’t see they are being led by lies, maybe they don’t see they are being used, maybe they don’t know the ends are supposed to justify the means (lies).
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