- Topic
I just wanted to bring up something that I witnessed in 2013 in my 3 years at WMS, in particular the treatment of children.
WMS observe the keeping of 'feasts' that they say are from the bible's teaching. One part of these feast rituals is fasting. On one particular 'feast' at WMS, members fast from about 10pm at night to 3pm the next day. Going without food and water for around 17 hours. My story is about what I witnessed on that day of fasting for the 'feast'. I was at 'Zion' and it was about lunch time on the day of the 'feast' and 'brothers' and 'sisters' were fasting. I was passing through the kitchen when a little girl, who was aged 3 years old, came into the kitchen and she was crying. I asked her what was wrong and she told me that she was hungry. So I went to the fridge and gave her some biscuits and then she asked for a drink of orange juice so I poured her a cup of juice. After this the 'sisters' found out I had done this and they rebuked me for giving this 3 year old girl food and drink because I was "denying her of blessings" on this day of fasting. Up until that time I had no idea that children were fasting and I told the 'sisters' that it disturbed me that one so young should be made to do this and they told me that children all around the world were keeping this rule, particularly in Korea. So I said I didn't agree with it but I carried on minding my own business. I didn't like it but I kept my mouth shut because at the time I respected the WMS. When I think about it now I am saddened and wonder how many other little kids are doing this fasting ritual. There are disadvantaged children around the world suffering from hunger and thirst but with love and support these children can have food and drink which is what they need. I can't think of a good reason why a 3 year old child should be suffering this sort of pain. It is my opinion that God teaches unconditional love for little children and anyone who causes them to suffer will be cursed by God. I'm not against an adult or even young adult fasting if that is how they are devoted to God because they understand why they are doing it. However a 3 year old child does not understand fasting. They simply don't comprehend it. I don't know if children are still made to fast and I only found out by accident on that day but I hope it doesn't still occur because it is hard to believe that Jesus would abide in this sort of practice. I find no evidence of children fasting in his teachings.
@Hyde When we learned about the fasting regulations, we were initially told, “Be it unto your faith”. But of course, when you see other children doing it, and members talking to you in that sappy tone, “Awww…tsk..dont worry bredder, your faith will grow”, you feel bad. I remember in the beginning at the 5am Feast services, young children were allowed to sleep. The moms would always come with their young one’s wrapped up like caterpillars. Then, we were instructed to keep them awake during the feast. Whats amazing, is in Islam, children are NOT required to fast until puberty. Again, the “True” church doesnt realize that fasting has ill effects on small children, but a “false” religion does? Lets not forget, WMS also denied that children fast in their Today Show interview.
The way WMS’ logic is backwards, is just crazy to me now. I should have trusted my gut. We would sneak and give a cookie to our kids during the feast. Ive know of mothers crying, because they felt bad that they were depriving their young children if food as well.
This is a true sign of a cult. If you study the other famous cults – Jones Town, Branch Davidian, etc, the people followed the rules so closely that they allowed or assisted in the killing their own children. When people are harming children, either by fasting or long hours of neglect in a room where teenagers are expected to care for other members children, or by poisoning them as the Jones followers did, or by shooting them or allowing them to burn, as the Branch Davidian's did – they have lost all ability to reason and think critically – a main characteristic of a cult member. Of course killing is the most extreme act, but they don't start there – they end up there! They start with following rules about how the church says to treat/raise their children, which even though people in the WMS feel bad about it, they follow along because they believe that mother god will take care of them or as referenced above, they will miss out on blessings.
The Jehovah Wittnesses don't believe in blood transfusions (because of a verse they site from the Bible). Cults will always find scriptures to support their views and practices, even if it harms children.
Here is story I found about a "Church of God" (Interesting!) that believes in snake handling:
During the service, believers may approach the front and pick up the snakes, usually raising them into the air and sometimes allowing the snakes to crawl on their bodies. The snakes are considered incarnations of demons, and handling the snakes demonstrates one's power over them. Members are not required to handle the snakes. Some believers will also engage in drinking poison (most commonly strychnine) at this time.
Over sixty cases of death as the result of snakebites in religious worship services have been documented in the United States. If a handler is bitten, it is generally interpreted as a lack of faith or failure to follow the leadership of the Holy Spirit. But individual incidents may actually be understood in a variety of ways. Bitten believers usually do not seek medical help, but look to God for their healing. Beginning in 1936, six southeastern states outlawed snake-handling. George Went Hensley died in Florida in 1955 from a venomous snakebite.
In other areas of belief, the Church of God with Signs Following holds doctrines and practices similar to related Church of God and Oneness Pentecostal bodies. They maintain a strict teaching of standards of holiness in daily living, baptism in the Holy Spirit, divine healing, water baptism, and footwashing. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_God_with_Signs_Following)
and another: http://childrenshealthcare.org/?page_id=132
Of course the WMS leaders would never handle snakes or hold back on going to the doctor if they couldn't breathe – they don't trust mother to take care of them because they know she's not god – its the rest of the devoted followers!
I blame the leaders for the intense amount of pressure they put on the parents to “discipline” their children the Korean way.
I also think the parents have responsibility to protect their kids from harm.
That being said, during Passover (when I was a member) parents forced their very young children to drink the wine vials, in fear of them not being able to receive eternal life. Let’s just say there were a lot of noses being held so that they would swallow it, and a lot of crying.
Not to mention kids on Sabbaths being there from 7am -12am with no naps. Being left in the care of complete strangers, there were never any background checks of members. Not for nothing, some people watching the kids were on Visas & not even American citizens.
Imagine a member like Jamal or Clement who clearly have documented police records taking care of your child?
Don’t even get me started.
Purposeful denial of nourishment is neglect under state laws all over the USA. If this can be documented, those parents and overseers would be in violation. Child protective services should be notified if this is true within that jurisdiction of the offending cult church. Naming names in this case would be a good thing. Parents of these children and their overseers (hopefully Korean) could be in big trouble.
@Setufree I had a run in or two, regarding my kids. Nothing big, but one if the deacons Korean wife, fully expected her words to be listened to without question and I always got the vibe she thought she knew how to take care of the kids better than the parents. When I would see the kids marching in line between services I would speak to my kids, stop for a hug etc. None of the other teachers had an issue with it. One Saturday, my son wanted to speak to me so he tried to grab my attention. The teacher attempted to get him back into line, which was upsetting because by now my son and I were already speaking. I sternly told her, “I am talking to my son, I will bring him back to your class when we are done. The deaconess walked off with her ego hurt. She would often try to give parenting advice to “sisters” as well. Thus woman had no children of her own, nor any license to care for kids, bur wants to give advice? When concern was brought up about an “imou” once, the overseer said, “All the Sister chosen for the children have muuuccchhh Holy Spirit”. And that was enough for many, but not me. One sister who’s boyfriend I was close to, hated being a teacher. She never wanted the position, was only 20 with no kids of her own and no traininng. So in Wms, “holy spirit”, which is based on the Overseers own interpretation, is enough to watch a child?
Lastly, I knew of one parent who because of the pressures of the Church, never had time for her child. When a traveling event happened she always stayed back to watch the children who were to small to go. She told another member that that was the only time she had to spend with her own child.
I can only speak from my personal experience… But I don’t think I have ever heard of any child not in their teens being told or pressured by leaders or their parents to fast. So that 3 year old you alleged was fasting I could not confirm – but I would find it very hard to believe – sorry but that story doesn’t make much sense. What zion were you in?
Anyways – I can confirm that little children younger than their teens had to practice tithe and offering. Of course the parents would prepare it for this kids but from my understanding you tithe a tenth of your income…how can a child be expected to practice tithe if they have no income…
Anyways from my experience from the feasts I remember having to drive hours everyday picking and dropping people off. No one helped with gas and members complained when I was running a bit late… Sorry but I couldn’t help running a bit late since I’ve been running an average of 3 hours of sleep. That’s MY EXPERINCE with the WMSCOG.
@John Our children were encouraged. They weren’t ordered or instructed. I also had issue with the children tithing. I have heard of members being advised that they should also tithe from gift cards? I never heard that where we were, but if I get a 25$ Applebees card, how do I tithe that? Lmbo
@John: I've heard of children fasting and parents feeling very guilty because they snuck food to them. I've also heard that babies have to tithe! Lol! I couldn't fathom that, but I heard that it works like this: Whatever you spend on the child, you give 10% to the church for that amount. So if you figure you spend $1,500 on the child per month, babysitting, food, clothes, etc., you would give $150 for the child to ensure "blessings." Baby tithe. That's a pretty low down method to squeeze money out of already strapped parents, in my opinion.
@Mountain The alarming thing is, that things vary from “Zion to Zion”. This usually hapoens with young Organizations that are fragmentes and sometimes, purposely use those varying rules to their advantage.
setufree wrote:
I blame the leaders for the intense amount of pressure they put on the parents to "discipline" their children the Korean way.
I also think the parents have responsibility to protect their kids from harm.
That being said, during Passover (when I was a member) parents forced their very young children to drink the wine vials, in fear of them not being able to receive eternal life. Let's just say there were a lot of noses being held so that they would swallow it, and a lot of crying.
Not to mention kids on Sabbaths being there from 7am -12am with no naps. Being left in the care of complete strangers, there were never any background checks of members. Not for nothing, some people watching the kids were on Visas & not even American citizens.
Imagine a member like Jamal or Clement who clearly have documented police records taking care of your child?
Don't even get me started.
This has always concerned me. From talking to parents who had their children cared for in the Wms, I heard that the children are there all day Saturday but, of course, not with their parents for most of the time. A lot of the time was spent in a dark room, sitting on the floor being forced to watch TV. When they aren't doing that, they are being given lessons they don't even understand. There were way too many kids for the amount of people watching them, and one parent reported that a sixteen year old boy was left to care for over 15 young kids. At another time a baby was left on a changing table unattended. An adult caretaker left her there and toddlers in the area. One child was found with a battery in her mouth. A three year old girl was disciplined inappropriately by being left in a room alone for fifteen minutes for a "time-out." When the mother came in and protested and tried to go to her child, the Korean lady stepped in between them and wouldn't allow her to go to her child. She said,"She has to learn, she has to be disciplined." Other children were made to do push ups or sit ups or stand behind a door with their arms up for long amounts of time.
Then there is the fasting component as well for some children. I bet it isn't fun taking care of a bunch of hungry kids on their feast/fast days. Pretty tough to handle, especially for these people who are young, not necessarily fond of kids in every case, and not trained or certified in child care. Yet, like the woman Untouchable talks about, still arrogantly thinking they know more than the parents about how the children should be dealt with. And like Setufree says, what if someone is unstable mentally and is put in charge? I think that may have already happened from the way it sounds. No priority is given those children. They are simply people who get in the way of parents preaching or coming to Zion.
I know of two year olds whose parent was going to get them up at 4 and take them to the 5 AM services, and make them stay during the whole thing for the whole time. How do kids who are old enough to go to school deal with this? How well will they do with their studies with the lack of sleep they experience? In my opinion, the Wms is a terrible thing to inflict on a child. At the time, the parents think they are doing the right thing, and are assured they are. But is this the best place for a child?
@Mountain Some of the things you mentioned I havent seen, but don’t surprise me. We did have many “imos” who had little to no experience with kids. Some did well, some didn’t. Im pretty sure that when I joined, WMS had been through its fair share of complaints, sick or hurt kids, and even abuse. When we were there especially in the first two years, everything was, “Be it unto your faith” so they took a nuetral stance. But when you see other kids your child’s age fasting, staying up for 5am service, preaching,you feel pressured. When your child cries because he or she is hungry, and you sneak them a cookie or crqacker, you feel bad. As for the “ajummas”, Mountain is correct, there aren’t any background checks. ANY. I’ve learned through working with Criminals, that many times they hide in and through religion. Look at how many people in religion are child molestors, recovering addicts etc. The WMS covers up, ANY issues it runs into. While there, we had a male member start to lose his marbles, and reported that voices told him the Overseer was against him. Another member, after losing his home to divorce due to his church involvment, started picketing in front of the “Zion” with a sign telling sinners to repent and flee to Zion. I saw another member who confided in me of his battles with Alcohol, leaving a Liquor store. I reported it to the Overseer, thinking I was doing the right thing. My point is that the Psychological impact harms adults often….so how much more for a child? Many children can’t play an instrument , an organized Sport, or, have had their parents NOT plan for their collegiate education due to no financial planning, or the belief that the world would end anyway
UntouchableJ wrote:
@Mountain Some of the things you mentioned I havent seen, but don't surprise me. We did have many "imos" who had little to no experience with kids. Some did well, some didn't. Im pretty sure that when I joined, WMS had been through its fair share of complaints, sick or hurt kids, and even abuse. When we were there especially in the first two years, everything was, "Be it unto your faith" so they took a nuetral stance. But when you see other kids your child's age fasting, staying up for 5am service, preaching,you feel pressured. When your child cries because he or she is hungry, and you sneak them a cookie or crqacker, you feel bad. As for the "ajummas", Mountain is correct, there aren't any background checks. ANY. I've learned through working with Criminals, that many times they hide in and through religion. Look at how many people in religion are child molestors, recovering addicts etc. The WMS covers up, ANY issues it runs into. While there, we had a male member start to lose his marbles, and reported that voices told him the Overseer was against him. Another member, after losing his home to divorce due to his church involvment, started picketing in front of the "Zion" with a sign telling sinners to repent and flee to Zion. I saw another member who confided in me of his battles with Alcohol, leaving a Liquor store. I reported it to the Overseer, thinking I was doing the right thing. My point is that the Psychological impact harms adults often….so how much more for a child? Many children can't play an instrument , an organized Sport, or, have had their parents NOT plan for their collegiate education due to no financial planning, or the belief that the world would end anyway
Exactly, Untouchable. I am very concerned for the children of members, with good reason. It is very unfortunate when kids are brought up in a doomsday cult. They miss out on so many of the joys of life, and freedom of choice is the biggest. I know of members who couldn't get one single person to join the Wms with them, but are very proud that they will force their innocent, helpless child into it.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.