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Hi my name's mat and a couple months ago my girlfriend was going through tought times with her job (feeling of being unappreciated) and ended up quiting, the night she made the decision of quiting a member came up to her and convinced her to join the church.
First I thought it was just another church and I went there one "sabbath" day i did about 6 studies and was starting to believe a little, even though i had doubts after every study. I hardly trust things right in front of me , I couldn't just trust someone who was trying to flip my views on religion. I did some research online and found this site,I watched many videos, read some of the evidence and even bought steve hassan's book, I was convinced this church was fake so I tried to show my girlfriend one of the videos. as soon as i pressed play she shut the screen off and we had one of the hugest arguements of our relationship. This was about a month ago, now i'm at the point where I dont know what to do, i showed her scriptures that should of created doubt in her head because she wont listen to me about anything unless it's in the bible, but even when i show her what's in the bible she takes it the way the poeple at her church tell her to understand and that causes more arguements. We been living together for 2 months now, fighting for a month, and now im moving out on the 31st, i'm afraid when i leave she'll become more involved with the church. I cant let her go because I know its not her fault, No normal person would ever put up with all this, we been talkin for about a year and i'm not willing to throw everything away because of this church.
She's a very combative person and every talk turns into an arguement soon enough when the church is brought up, she doesn't believe anything unless you show it to her right in your face.
I dont know what to do, help please
Does anyone know why the wmscog asked members to return the 2011-2012 calendars and not show anyone? That is the first I have heard of that. @Mat: I am pretty sure they wouldn't have said anything on the calendar about 2012 being the end of the world because they would not like to put it in writing. It is true they said that and fully believed that, but they try to hide that, so I don't think it would have been on the calendars. Could be wrong, so I am asking here if there was something on the calendars I didn't know about. I actually have a copy of a page in a brochure where they do talk about 2012 being the return of "the bridegroom" and has all the dates and numbers of how they came up with it. It is in Korean, but I had it translated, and it is the only thing I have seen in writing. I have all sorts of proof that the members did believe this because I have witnesses who heard what they said. More than one witness, like 5 I know personally, and there are way more than that out there. All the ex-members are witnesses as well. Anyway, would love to have the question about the calendars answered by someone.
@MatNeedshelp, communication is the key. As @Joshua mentioned in his post —keep communication opened— Be the detailed, the most romantic guy you have ever been. But also protect yourself. It is a painful process and it can be a very long one as well. You will need to be very patient, smart and you will also need to know what to answer when she tries to prove her points about her belief. At one point she's going to want to preach outside and recruit people. She will try to use her newly acquired knowledge to convince you that what she is in the truth and you are not. Be very careful there. That's a grenade and it can explode very quickly depending how you react and respond to it as well.
Don't argue, best practice is to get a Bible and study with her when she wants to talk about religion. Don't reveal this forum to her just yet. Don't let her know that you are looking for information outside the Bible. You have an advantage; you have this site with this information. Use it all but know how to .. It's like being a lawyer defending a criminal case where you are also the individual being accused. its what to use and how you will present this information as proof to her that will eventually open her eyes..
Do it. Just go. You don't have to believe a thing you see or hear. But then would you really be happy? Probably not. But at least you would have your girl, right? At least until they arrange her a korean husband, and make no mistake about how possible that really is. I guess it just really comes down to a choice, doesn't it? $hitty, I know. But this is a very big world. One day you will look back and be glad you walked away. Unless, of course, you stay. "Ignorantly happy" occours to most people anyway, but I think it's better to avoid the most obvious examples of it. At the end of the day, the choice is yours, bro. The best thing you can do is use your deductive reasoning and face the obvious two choices you really have, no one here can make it for you. Good luck.
@Mat: I have gone to the wmscog several times, all at my son's request. I have a grounded faith and God knows what my heart is. I just went to see what was happening there and be able to talk it about it with understanding and from first hand experience. I feel bad for the good people there, and there are many who really are good, they are just so manipulated and delusional.
You are in a very difficult position, I know. If you don't go, your girl will not stay with you. If you do go, you will have to live a lie, and for a very long time – untill she gets out or you just can't do it anymore. "What is truth" is not kidding when he says they will probably try to match her up with a Korean or another devoted member very soon after your break up. I've heard of so many cases where that has happened.
You have received some very good advice here. The best is: Keep doing research, don't argue with her, keep the communication lines open, give her love and support in everything possible, and know that if you want to keep her, you are in for a long term struggle and you need ultimate patience. If you can do that, you have a chance. If you can't, you will have to go to Plan B. I wish you luck, and keep in touch.
@Mat – I think the advice given by Joshua is the best you can get. He has been there, done that. Yes, the possibility of a Korean husband cannot be ruled out either.
Since she is telling you to come to her church, it may be worth agreeing with her with the caveat that you would like to be with her but cannot allow yourself to be baptized until you are fully convinced. She will probably agree to the condition. If that happens, great. Tell her, "Your deaconess will not agree to this because they are trying to split us up."
When she speaks to her handlers, they will tell her it's not possible to let you attend without being baptized. That is a potential confrontation for her with her handlers about why you are not being allowed to attend without being baptized.
emil wrote:
@Mat – I think the advice given by Joshua is the best you can get. He has been there, done that. Yes, the possibility of a Korean husband cannot be ruled out either.
Since she is telling you to come to her church, it may be worth agreeing with her with the caveat that you would like to be with her but cannot allow yourself to be baptized until you are fully convinced. She will probably agree to the condition. If that happens, great. Tell her, "Your deaconess will not agree to this because they are trying to split us up."
When she speaks to her handlers, they will tell her it's not possible to let you attend without being baptized. That is a potential confrontation for her with her handlers about why you are not being allowed to attend without being baptized.
@Emil, I don't want to sound pessimistic, but this was my reality as well. There might not be any confrontation between her and the handler. By the time the handler tells her that Mat cannot stay for Sabbath anymore it would be too late for her to react and/or disagree.They have learned that they cannot reject the partner until they have worked on her mind first. Their work has become very elaborate. They are becoming more sophisticated.
They will tell her that the cult must protect everything that is said in those services during Sabbath among other excuses. I remember that a brother told me the following; "There is going to be a point in which you will hit a wall; You either get baptized or you don't, then we won't insist anymore." Most of them know that a partner who takes several weeks of studies and still have not made a decision to join is a loss cause. They won't insist, instead, they will pressure her(trying to save her from Satan) to either work on him or lose him. It is part of their strategy.
@Travis: What you say is true. And the strategy they have of telling the member to pressure their reluctant loved one into joining the wmscog is the one that causes most of the strife and separation in families. The member desperately and constantly pressure their loved one to listen, and their loved one can't stand the constant pressure becaue it is outrageous and obnoxious. So it is a recipe for separation, and the leaders know it. Eventually they can separate their member from the non-believer one way or the other and then say they didn't cause it. But the very nature of their method of operation most definitely causes it. And they like to talk about religious persecution, but they will not accept their spouses religion or allow them to practice it. The non member cannot even keep literature in the house or religious movies that aren't promoting the wmscog. It is always the pot calling the kettle black with them.
Emil, thanks for the props! Sometimes it's really great to hear (or see as the case may be) things like this. Communication really is key to all of this. Conflict avoidance is another major key. I like the idea of telling your girl that her handler is going to try and break you up. This really turns the tables on this group. This group likes to appear like they have the truth and they are more than willing to make a potential victum feel like this is the case. What am I talking about you might be asking? Think about this; The WMSCOG tells people that have taken their studies things like, "Your friends and family might not understand this truth that you now understand. Satan might use them to try and take the truth from you. Remember, we only showed you the truth and we only teach from the Bible so if anyone tries to contradict what you have learned you can know what's really happening."
Sounds like they really care but in truth they have just set a trap for their intended victum. This kind of manipulation really sucks! These victums really are desiring the truth and want to do the right things. Most of these people are really great, nice, intelligent, and caring people just being manipulated by a few people with ill intentions.
By setting yourself up as someone who is curious but cautious you have shown your loved one you are willing to support her but you are not willing to just jump into something at a moments notice. She should be able to respect you for this and cause a huge doubt for her when her handler tries to break you guys up. Note of warning!!! Be warry of any guys in the group being interested in your girl. Even when it comes to studies, evangelizing, or preaching practice. Limit the amount of exposure to the group if you can. Sooner or later she will be out of this it's just better if she leaves on her own instead of being kicked out. Nice job and good luck.
daluca matthew wrote:
they dont kno about me. my girlfriend, well let me not even say girlfriend she's pretty much my fiance, her family sees me as a son, and she's a catch, If they think i'll allow some little korean *** to take my girl they must be on something, i went to sabbath, purposely shook the *** out of everyone of there hands, gave em the biggest *** smile they'll ever see, and left out there without any confrontation or much talking, but she was happy, and i'm already seeing how they're trying to get her against me, saying that i'm not coming to studies etc. but i took care of that EASILY.
I will not say how because i have no doubt that they have there spied on here learning from there mistakes through this site, but know that you cant beat me, i'm just as smart, i've took psychology and sociology in 2 different colleges, and read 2 books on this crap.
anyone reading this (mountainmom etc.) fight thru the pain and even though its hurts to live a LIE with your kids dont half ass that lie LIVE THE *** OUT THAT LIE.
thats my decision
i didnt actually curse but i put the *** to show emphasis, you can choose the words that you want
omg Mat, they ALREADY kno who you are, they kno who your GF is and they are going to chew you up and spit you out!
I feel so bad for you! You are either a fake or someone who has NO idea who you are messin with!!!! I will pray for you but you have no chance right now.
Joshua, I've gone back and read your posts, I can see your well versed and your heart is in the right place but with due respect you are out of touch with what is the reality of this situation. it changes everyday! You can't possibly keep up with them on a casual basis. What worked yesterday doesn't work today and what works today won't work tomorrow.
Take it from an ex member who knows……respect your enemy!!!!!
Our dear Matt has obviously no clue who he's dealing with. This is probably how it's going to go down ๐
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMwmqp3GLMc
Listen to sally, mate ๐
daluca matthew wrote:
they dont kno about me. my girlfriend, well let me not even say girlfriend she's pretty much my fiance, her family sees me as a son, and she's a catch, If they think i'll allow some little korean *** to take my girl they must be on something, i went to sabbath, purposely shook the *** out of everyone of there hands, gave em the biggest *** smile they'll ever see, and left out there without any confrontation or much talking, but she was happy, and i'm already seeing how they're trying to get her against me, saying that i'm not coming to studies etc. but i took care of that EASILY.
I will not say how because i have no doubt that they have there spied on here learning from there mistakes through this site, but know that you cant beat me, i'm just as smart, i've took psychology and sociology in 2 different colleges, and read 2 books on this crap.
anyone reading this (mountainmom etc.) fight thru the pain and even though its hurts to live a LIE with your kids dont half ass that lie LIVE THE *** OUT THAT LIE.
thats my decision
i didnt actually curse but i put the *** to show emphasis, you can choose the words that you want
Let's start over Mat and I do respect the fact that you have took psychology and sociology in 2 different colleges and read 2 books on this crap. Let's start with the fact that they know exactly who you are and what you are trying to do, get your GF out. They are currently working her day and night because they know you are their enemy. They can shake your hand and hold that smile longer than you can especially since they have the paster, a handler and a group of maybe 6 or 7 people taking turns smiling at you. Soon they will have your GF completely turned against you. For them it has become a matter of PRIORITY. (based on what you said about her home life, she might be the rare individual who is better off in the cult……sorry i didn't mean that, JK)
Let's say by some miracle you slowly get your GF out by using the LIVE THE TOTAL LIE method, what kind of a relationship will you be left with when she realizes that YOU lied to her as much as they did? I do believe that total honesty in this case is out of the question but you are far better off checking your male ego at the door and focusing on slowly developing trust and repore with her (which requires honesty) while at the same time trying to get her to think for herself. It is an exhausting and complicated process.
BTW, they don't teach this c/rap in college, they should but they don't. I'm curious what books did you read that tell you to lie lie lie?
Sometimes its easier to walk away and move on with your life…….
"If you love somebody, let them go, for if they return they were always yours. And if they don't they never were."- Khalil Gibran
that quote is absolute horse s h I t
Simon wrote:
that quote is absolute horse s h I t
:'D
Yeah.. where is this Khalil guy now, huh? >.<
You don't bring a lebanese fella to a mostly jewish forum.
์กฐ๋ wrote:
Yeah.. where is this Khalil guy now, huh? >.<
You don't bring a lebanese fella to a mostly jewish forum.
what are you talking about
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