[fromtheotherside]

“From this same Catholic Church you have accepted your Sunday, and that Sunday, as the Lord’s day, she has handed down as a tradition; and the entire Protestant world has accepted it as tradition, for you have not an iota of Scripture to establish it. Therefore that which you have accepted as your rule of faith, in­adequate as it of course is, as well as your Sunday, you have accepted on the authority of the Roman Catholic Church” (D.B. Ray;">The Papal Controversy, p. 179, 1892).

[emil]

[emil]

Simon wrote:

Sabbath is repeated in Matthew 24 and Hebrews and one can presume the 4th when everything else so clearly kept the original moedim

I'm sorry I failed to spot anything about the Sabbath in Mt 24.

Regarding Heb 4, in fact it is an argument against the Saturday Sabbath. Please read it carefully specially verses 7 and 8.

[fromtheotherside]

Elievalkyrie wrote:

On what day did the early church meet for worship? Scripture never mentions any Sabbath (Saturday) gatherings by believers for fellowship or worship. However, there are clear passages that mention the first day of the week. For instance, Acts 20:7 states that “on the first day of the week we came together to break bread.” In 1 Corinthians 16:2 Paul urges the Corinthian believers “on the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income.” Since Paul designates this offering as “service” in 2 Corinthians 9:12, this collection must have been linked with the Sunday worship service of the Christian assembly. Historically Sunday, not Saturday, was the normal meeting day for Christians in the church, and its practice dates back to the first century.

Acts 20:7 is resurection day which occurs after the feast of Unleavend bread and is always kept on sunday. It's more proof it's that day because the bible explicitly points out the feast of Unleavened bread as a pinpoint to what time of the year it is. 

1 cor 16:2  Why did Apostle paul say that the collections, which had been collected fro a long time, should not be made when he cam? If the collections in 1 cor were the regular offering, they had to be made whether or not he came.  Therefore it is not a Regular service offering. 

The offering was a special offering to help the church in Jerusalem. "I will send the with you GiFT to Jerusalem."  

Back then they didn't have set Monthly wage, but a fluctuating daily wage, you get paid at the end of the day, according to how much you work.

So set aside according to your INCOME, meaning the wage you recieved that day, so actually this proves they actually worked on sunday not keep service 

2 cor 9:12 "service" doesn't mean worship here, it means "deed" "help" as it says in 2cor 16 a "gift" to jerusalem.

[fromtheotherside]

Also to point out if you read all of 2 cor chapter 9 it speaks of how paul worte in his letter that when he recommended the church in macedonia to prepare collections he boasted to them about the church in corinth that prepared collection for ONE year.  You can clearly tell this is a special type of offering not your every week normal worship day offering.  

[Joshua]

fromtheotherside wrote:

Joshua wrote:

I agree with Simon that this topic isn't a particularly wonderful argument for discerning truth. Christians in the early church were set appart and in the minority by meeting on Sunday instead of Saturday. Most other religious groups of the time met on Saturdays making the Christians seem rather strange thus making them a target for other groups. It would have been much easier to go with the world and meet on Saturdays but that was not the example that Jesus set after the resurrection. How many lives could have been spared if only the early church chose to follow along with everyone else.

Actualy history points out that Saturday was the of worship for the early church, up until a gradual change uccured starting from the churchs around rome. Which started around 100ad.  The Apostles were the only ones who kept this change from occuring and they speak about it in the bible and they even express about changes being made that they are trying to stop.  Actually it wasn't the christians that kept sunday that were persecuted but sabbath.  That is historical.  The Christians who changed and kept sunday were givin refuge and started to persecute the christians who kept what they were taught by the apostles, which is Sabbath.  

 Boy did you miss your homework on this one. The earliest reported gatherings of Christians was reported around 70AD. This reporting was done by a person who was not affiliated with the Christian church. His report included a very obvious fact that Christians gathered on Sundays.

[fromtheotherside]

As I said "around" it's a big fat around, but it was a ball park figure.  But that's not the point, as you just showed ad 70 is well after the resurection.  That means the apostles were still alive, some.  And as the prophecied and stated the works of the lawlessone.  So Sunday service started not with the deciples or Jesus but around ad 70 correct, So the disciples kept Sabbath.  Sunday started to appear after. As prophesied in 2 Thes

 

[Sarah2013]

So, you, FTOS, really, really believe that Saturday worship determines obedience. Even Jesus annotated on that issue as a hypocritical act. At the end of the day, don’t you think Jesus knew those who were real and those who were fake in spite of there actions?

[Sarah2013]

Benny Hinn is a good example. He professes Jesus, and claim to do a lot of miraculous act. However, it cannot be proved. The devil knows the Bible and tried to tempt The Lord. Demons can pretend to be divine in the ignorant, but it doesn’t make them legit.

[fromtheotherside]

I understand what you're saying Sarah.  God knows your heart.  I know.  The bible also says that God tests our faith.  So you have to ask yourself y test if he already knows the outcome?  Right?  He knows that we will pass or fail.  It's to make us stronger.  Through that he can make us stronger. But how about someone who fails.  You can ask y did you test him when you knew he was going to fail.  God has a purpose for everything He know the outcome and our hearts your correct.  Then y do anything at all.  Y come and die on the cross?  If God is almighty and all powerful y come and die on the cross, he could snap his fingers and just say believe now and you will recieve salvation.  God has his reasons.  and his will.  

About sabbath, yea hypocritical to the jews, correct me if I'm wrong.  Yes I do believe it determines obedience. it is the fourth commandment.  Jesus kept it, the apostles did too, If they didn't have to they wouldn't have.  Examples is stronger then words.  If jesus swatted and killed a fly and said be kind to your fellow man.  then I would see that as Be kind to man but animals are fair game do as you please.  He never said it but he showed it.  

[Joshua]

fromtheotherside wrote:

As I said "around" it's a big fat around, but it was a ball park figure.  But that's not the point, as you just showed ad 70 is well after the resurection.  That means the apostles were still alive, some.  And as the prophecied and stated the works of the lawlessone.  So Sunday service started not with the deciples or Jesus but around ad 70 correct, So the disciples kept Sabbath.  Sunday started to appear after. As prophesied in 2 Thes

 

 No, this was not correct. Outside of the Bible, which backs up what is written in the Bible, recorded that Christians were meeting on Sundays. As you pointed out some of the Apostles would have still been alive and more than willing to make corrections to the flock if needed.

[emil]

fromtheotherside wrote:

As I said "around" it's a big fat around, but it was a ball park figure.  But that's not the point, as you just showed ad 70 is well after the resurection.  That means the apostles were still alive, some.  And as the prophecied and stated the works of the lawlessone.  So Sunday service started not with the deciples or Jesus but around ad 70 correct, So the disciples kept Sabbath.  Sunday started to appear after. As prophesied in 2 Thes

Joshua did not say that Saturday worship started in 70 AD. He said the earliest reported writing about it from a non-biblical source was circa 70 AD.

So it had to be existing before that. Be aware that the apostle John was alive till about 100 AD.

[Simon]

saying the apostles were around at the time something happened within the Church doesn't make it valid as they said evil had already started to take root within the church.

 

as far as Hebrews 4:7-8 I don't see how that could possibly be construed as antisabbath in context or without

[Simon]

As for Matt 24

 

20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

 

Why would Jesus bring up Sabbath regarding the last disaster if we weren't supposed to keep it?

[Rahab]

“Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath.” These are two examples of when travel would be difficult or prohibited.

[Simon]

but it wouldn't be if we weren't to keep Sabbath

[Simon]

(of course winter would be difficult ithout regard to human custom noone can very well say Christians don't have to aknowledge winter LOL

[Rahab]

The way that I am understanding Matthew 24: 15-22 is: if a person were keeping the Sabbath perfectly according to Jewish law/custom they were to do no work (no cooking, cleaning, feeding livestock, out in the fields, trades, errands, lighting fires, etc) and travel was either extremely limited or prohibited. If disaster/ destruction were coming towards them, then they could not flee from it and find a safe haven (i.e. the mountains) because of the Sabbath laws.

[Joshua]

Verse 20 also speaks about your faith in God. Hopefully while trials come you will have hope which will be your faith in God. Times will be tough but I expect that those times will be even harder for those with no faith in God.

[Joshua]

To address the opening line of this forum post: Christians were meeting on Sundays before the establishment of the Catholic church. This is recorded history so it is in fact Christian and not created by the Catholic church.

[Simon]

and if we weren’t too keep Sabbath it wouldn’t affect us

[fromtheotherside]

Joshua I agreed that sunday was there at the time that you spoke of, but it wasn't throughout the whole church, Jesus kept sabbath and his apostles.  The sunday was around at the time that you speak of, that is correct, that is why the apostles spoke of the lawlessone and that his work has "already" began, that meaning sunday service.  The important thing is the apostles kept saturday.  which has more evidence in the bible then does sunday service.  Saturday atleast has some backing to it, though it maybe small, but sunday, not even a wink in the bible.  Also most theologians whether it be protestant catholic or cult says that the apostles kept saturday.