[genny]

Rev. 12:7-9

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.  So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The wmscog teaches that people are the angels who were cast out of heaven.  What about satan?  He was cast out of heaven too, but was he put into a human body?  Which one?  Wouldn't he be dead and gone now?  Or was he cast out differently than the other bad angels. 

How many bad angels were there?  There are approximately 7 billion people on earth right now, plus all those who previously lived.  Are there that many fallen angels?  Of have some of them been reincarnated into humans over and over again?

Rev. 12:4 can be interpreted that the fallen angels were about 1/3 of all angels.  Does that mean there are 14+ billion good angels still in heaven?

I know not everyone on this forum is a Christian or believes in satan the same way, but just go with it for now…  If the wmscog were right about the fallen angels doctrine, what impact would that have on who satan is?

And wmscog members, you can help clear this up.  How does it all fit together?

And while we are at it, how about babies who die or are born handicapped, disfigured, or otherwise 'defective' (for lack of a better word)?  Did they deserve it because of their sin in heaven?  How are they and their parents treated by the wmscog?  What does the wmscog teach about them?

(PS — I'm a parent myself, and I don't mean to be cruel or offensive with the wording, but rather than step lightly to avoid hurt feelings, I'd like to get to the root of the issue.)

[Love'n Honey]

[Love'n Honey]

Still, what are the definitions of "intentional" & "sin"?

[Love'n Honey]

Still, what are the definitions of "intentional" & "sin"?

[Love'n Honey]

I searched through my notes & found a study [or sermon. I didn't specify] entitled "The Forgivable Sin & the Unforgivable Sin". My notes are written as follows:

Mt 12:31 – 2 kinds of sin, forgivable & unforgivable. Son of man —> mankind. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. Mt 18:21 – Forgive our Brothers continuously. 1 Jn 5:16 – 2 kinds of sin, sin that leads to death & the other. What is the sin against the Holy Spirit? Mk 3:28 – Blasphemy against the HS is unforgivable. telling people how to go slandering the Truth is sin against the HS which is unforgivable. Is 2:25 – If a man sins against God, there's no one to intercede because no one greater than God. Jn 7:44 – Due to prejudice, the Pharisees were blind & said bad things about Christ. He 6:4 – It impossible for those who've fallen away to come back into the Truth. 1 Jn 5:7 – Slandering the Truth is slandering the HS. Jd 1:8 – (no notes taken) Ge 15:16 – When the Amorites reach their full measure, God will punish them. 2 Ch 17:10 – (no notes taken)

[Sueno Maruyama]

Shimon, study this website more carefully.  Read the testimony of Zhang Mommies husband.  Poor guy got shut out by Ahn and some FAST talkin …..

 

Shimon ….. evidence????? 

[genny]

renita.payno wrote:

I searched through my notes & found a study [or sermon. I didn't specify] entitled "The Forgivable Sin & the Unforgivable Sin". My notes are written as follows:

Mt 12:31 – 2 kinds of sin, forgivable & unforgivable. Son of man —> mankind. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. Mt 18:21 – Forgive our Brothers continuously. 1 Jn 5:16 – 2 kinds of sin, sin that leads to death & the other. What is the sin against the Holy Spirit? Mk 3:28 – Blasphemy against the HS is unforgivable. telling people how to go slandering the Truth is sin against the HS which is unforgivable. Is 2:25 – If a man sins against God, there's no one to intercede because no one greater than God. Jn 7:44 – Due to prejudice, the Pharisees were blind & said bad things about Christ. He 6:4 – It impossible for those who've fallen away to come back into the Truth. 1 Jn 5:7 – Slandering the Truth is slandering the HS. Jd 1:8 – (no notes taken) Ge 15:16 – When the Amorites reach their full measure, God will punish them. 2 Ch 17:10 – (no notes taken)

Thanks, Renita.

According to this study about forgivable and unforgivable sin, then, I can't think of any sin that will be forgiven, because every sin is against God.  David sinned with Bathsheba, and said that sin was against God (Psalm 51:4).  Any sin we commit against each other is also a sin against God.  Plus, since the wms teaches that everyone sinned in heaven against God directly, then that won't be forgiven either.

I'm so glad that is not correct and that we have a forgiving and merciful God.

That study didn't address 'intentional' vs. 'unintentional' sin, though.  Or give a definition of 'sin.'  Can we define those according to the wms?

[Simon]

Sueno I wouldn’t.believe his story even if I were 100% confident.zahng gil jah was.a false.Christ

[Love'n Honey]

genny wrote:

renita.payno wrote:

I searched through my notes & found a study [or sermon. I didn't specify] entitled "The Forgivable Sin & the Unforgivable Sin". My notes are written as follows:

Mt 12:31 – 2 kinds of sin, forgivable & unforgivable. Son of man —> mankind. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. Mt 18:21 – Forgive our Brothers continuously. 1 Jn 5:16 – 2 kinds of sin, sin that leads to death & the other. What is the sin against the Holy Spirit? Mk 3:28 – Blasphemy against the HS is unforgivable. telling people how to go slandering the Truth is sin against the HS which is unforgivable. Is 2:25 – If a man sins against God, there's no one to intercede because no one greater than God. Jn 7:44 – Due to prejudice, the Pharisees were blind & said bad things about Christ. He 6:4 – It impossible for those who've fallen away to come back into the Truth. 1 Jn 5:7 – Slandering the Truth is slandering the HS. Jd 1:8 – (no notes taken) Ge 15:16 – When the Amorites reach their full measure, God will punish them. 2 Ch 17:10 – (no notes taken)

Thanks, Renita.

According to this study about forgivable and unforgivable sin, then, I can't think of any sin that will be forgiven, because every sin is against God.  David sinned with Bathsheba, and said that sin was against God (Psalm 51:4).  Any sin we commit against each other is also a sin against God.  Plus, since the wms teaches that everyone sinned in heaven against God directly, then that won't be forgiven either.

I'm so glad that is not correct and that we have a forgiving and merciful God.

That study didn't address 'intentional' vs. 'unintentional' sin, though.  Or give a definition of 'sin.'  Can we define those according to the wms?

 Exactly! I have brought this up many times with the members. If I tried to kill God as I was told, then how can I possibly be forgiven if there is no one to intercede for me?? Which is why I am convinced I'm on a highway to hell.

[Simon]

The whole deceived by Satan thing

[genny]

It sounds like I don't have to take any responsibility for any of my sins then.  Either it was impulses, to hard to control, or I was deceived by satan… it's not my fault…  there is an excuse for me.  Is this what you are saying the wms teaches?

[Love'n Honey]

That’s exactly what they teach but its but not exactly, exactly… example: satan puts a loaded gun on the table and someone you really dislike tied to a chair. He says, if you kill him no one will know it was you. (Something he could garuantee*). But you don’t shoot him because you don’t have the desire to. He’s tempting you but you can fight against it because its not what you desire. The COG teaches that its because of the evil desires we have we are tempted and commit sin.

[genny]

Yes, I understand about being tempted, but we had been talking here about *intentional and *unintentional sin.  It had seemed to me that the wmscog was finding ways to make sin 'unintentional' by having excuses about why we are not responsible for our sin.

[Rahab]

The wms view of unintentional sinning has never made sense to me. I understand we’re they are getting the original idea from in the Old Testament, but back then when someone unknowingly sinned they had to make a specific, different offering. I think that the wms’s idea of unintentional sinning is more of a loophole with our free will, that we aren’t somehow responsible. Could it also be seen as an instilled of fear? When my loved one was in, he told me that because I go to church on Sundays, I am unintentionally sinning because I did not know about the whole Constantine thing. Do people become more fearful about sinning against God if there is a possibility that they wouldn’t know that they were sinning?

[Love'n Honey]

But I don’t understand how unintentional sin doesn’t make sense to you when you just described it. My daughter does things that are considered bad. But sometimes she does a new “bad” thing that she doesn’t realize is bad. For instance, jumping on the couch. When she sees this little girl do it she thinks its ok. Possibly because the little girl wasn’t punished right away. So now my daughter decides to jump on the couch. Its against the rules therefore she is “sinning” against me but it was never made clear to her that it was against the rules. That’s unintentional sin; sinning without being aware of it. Now that I’ve told her its wrong to jump on the couch, if she does it again then she has made the conscious decision to disobey; she intentionally “sinned” against me. Unintentional is an accident whereas intentional is on purpose. Now, where is it in the bible? All over the place but its not labeled. The COG simply put a label on it which does make sense. It helped me to believe I still had a CHANCE to go to heaven. As far as the separate sin offerings, the COG says not every letter in the OT has a fulfillment EVEN THOUGH the NT says that every letter must be fulfilled or something like that.

[Simon]

Actualy there was no offering for intentional sin really

[Rahab]

so what were bulls and goats supposed to atone for?  I thought that offering a goat was for a sin offering?

 

 

Forgive me….sometimes when I am posting on here, my viewpoint is from a lifelong study and devotion to Christianity.  I do my best to see things from other's perspectives before I ask questions or post something.  I guess my conundrum about the lesson on unintentional sin lies in what I read in the Bible as sin and what the WMS is including as sin.  I don't fully see the WMS side of things.  My loved one went through 4 lessons with me.

 

 

I keep thinking about the conflict within my soul between my Christian worldview and the WMS worldview and try to rationalize it all out.  In my human thinking, I am wanting to get to a single thing, find a root of why what the Bible, and the Lord has told me doesn't mesh with what the lessons of the WMS.  I think it is this……..the WMS believes that Jesus has already come a second time, and I don't.  Is this the fundamental difference in belief that is the driving force?

thoughts? opinions?

[Love'n Honey]

I think the main problem is the second coming. Yes, people reject mother but i think it is the second coming that gives the greater distaste.

[genny]

renita.payno wrote:

But I don't understand how unintentional sin doesn't make sense to you when you just described it.

I do understand unintentional sin, but we had been talking earlier in this conversation about intentional sin and whether God forgives intentional sin (it might help to go back to the other pages because it's been a while).

Here's a clip from page 2:

genny wrote:

shimon wrote:

genny wrote:

shimon wrote:

can you cite an example of God forgiving Intentional Sin?

John 8:1-11, the woman caught in adultery

Peter was forgiven for denying Christ (Luke 22:54-62)

Paul was forgiven for persecuting Christians.

David was forgiven his sin with Bathsheba (2 Samuel 11 and 12)

Even the church in Laodicea is given the opportunity for forgiveness. (Rev. 3:14-20)

"And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." — Matthew 12:31

do you need some more examples?

None of those examples are stated to be intentional sins

Then what is the definition of an "intentional sin".  Peter, Paul, David, the woman caught in adultery, they all chose those sins.  They didn't happen accidentally.

(This was before Simon got out. 🙂

I remember the point being, if God only forgives unintentional sin (wmscog teaching, right?) but not intentional sin, then we are all doomed.  The only way we could not be doomed in this scenario would be if none of our sins are intentional, but then that means always finding an excuse for our sin so that it's not our fault–never taking responsibility.

So for your example of your daughter jumping on the couch.  If you were God in the wmscog scenario (only forgiving unintentional sin), you would forgive her the first time because she didn't know.  But you could never forgive her for any subsequent jumping on the couch, unless you took the view that she jumped on the couch because she succumbed to the temptation, but it wasn't her fault that she was tempted, so therefore it was unintentional.

[Love'n Honey]

If i were God in the example of my daughter, she would not be forgiven after the first time. This is what had me extremely upset that i would never go to heaven because even after being aware of my sin i continued to do it. But! There is a loop hole, so to speak. You can commit any intentional sin as long as you made it to the feast of PO or the day of atonement. Any sin except blasphemy against the HS is forgiven on those feast days.

[Simon]

No special offering is for intentional sin

[Simon]

basicly as I understand it is you give offering for it when you do the sin, and if you are unaware of your sins you become guilty if you become aware and thus must make the offering then