- Topic
Rev. 12:7-9
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The wmscog teaches that people are the angels who were cast out of heaven. What about satan? He was cast out of heaven too, but was he put into a human body? Which one? Wouldn't he be dead and gone now? Or was he cast out differently than the other bad angels.
How many bad angels were there? There are approximately 7 billion people on earth right now, plus all those who previously lived. Are there that many fallen angels? Of have some of them been reincarnated into humans over and over again?
Rev. 12:4 can be interpreted that the fallen angels were about 1/3 of all angels. Does that mean there are 14+ billion good angels still in heaven?
I know not everyone on this forum is a Christian or believes in satan the same way, but just go with it for now… If the wmscog were right about the fallen angels doctrine, what impact would that have on who satan is?
And wmscog members, you can help clear this up. How does it all fit together?
And while we are at it, how about babies who die or are born handicapped, disfigured, or otherwise 'defective' (for lack of a better word)? Did they deserve it because of their sin in heaven? How are they and their parents treated by the wmscog? What does the wmscog teach about them?
(PS — I'm a parent myself, and I don't mean to be cruel or offensive with the wording, but rather than step lightly to avoid hurt feelings, I'd like to get to the root of the issue.)
genny wrote:
Rev. 12:7-9
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The wmscog teaches that people are the angels who were cast out of heaven. What about satan? He was cast out of heaven too, but was he put into a human body? Which one? Wouldn't he be dead and gone now? Or was he cast out differently than the other bad angels.
How many bad angels were there? There are approximately 7 billion people on earth right now, plus all those who previously lived. Are there that many fallen angels? Of have some of them been reincarnated into humans over and over again?
Rev. 12:4 can be interpreted that the fallen angels were about 1/3 of all angels. Does that mean there are 14+ billion good angels still in heaven?
I know not everyone on this forum is a Christian or believes in satan the same way, but just go with it for now… If the wmscog were right about the fallen angels doctrine, what impact would that have on who satan is?
And wmscog members, you can help clear this up. How does it all fit together?
And while we are at it, how about babies who die or are born handicapped, disfigured, or otherwise 'defective' (for lack of a better word)? Did they deserve it because of their sin in heaven? How are they and their parents treated by the wmscog? What does the wmscog teach about them?
(PS — I'm a parent myself, and I don't mean to be cruel or offensive with the wording, but rather than step lightly to avoid hurt feelings, I'd like to get to the root of the issue.)
There are three types of fallen angels
Exposed intentional sinners
Unexposed intentional sinners
and Unintentional sinners
Only the last three are sent to earth in flesh Satan and numerous other angels are in the first class.
Why they are born in such a way I do not know but remember the man born blind was not born blind for his sin but so that God's glory could be displayed in his lifetime. What we consider being "defective" is our own shallow judgement call.
genny wrote:
Rev. 12:7-9
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
The wmscog teaches that people are the angels who were cast out of heaven. What about satan? He was cast out of heaven too, but was he put into a human body? Which one? Wouldn't he be dead and gone now? Or was he cast out differently than the other bad angels.
How many bad angels were there? There are approximately 7 billion people on earth right now, plus all those who previously lived. Are there that many fallen angels? Of have some of them been reincarnated into humans over and over again?
Rev. 12:4 can be interpreted that the fallen angels were about 1/3 of all angels. Does that mean there are 14+ billion good angels still in heaven?
I know not everyone on this forum is a Christian or believes in satan the same way, but just go with it for now… If the wmscog were right about the fallen angels doctrine, what impact would that have on who satan is?
And wmscog members, you can help clear this up. How does it all fit together?
And while we are at it, how about babies who die or are born handicapped, disfigured, or otherwise 'defective' (for lack of a better word)? Did they deserve it because of their sin in heaven? How are they and their parents treated by the wmscog? What does the wmscog teach about them?
(PS — I'm a parent myself, and I don't mean to be cruel or offensive with the wording, but rather than step lightly to avoid hurt feelings, I'd like to get to the root of the issue.)
There are three types of fallen angels
Exposed intentional sinners
Unexposed intentional sinners
and Unintentional sinners
Only the last three are sent to earth in flesh Satan and numerous other angels are in the first class.
Why they are born in such a way I do not know but remember the man born blind was not born blind for his sin but so that God's glory could be displayed in his lifetime. What we consider being "defective" is our own shallow judgement call.
"What about satan? He was cast out of heaven too, but was he put into a human body?"
Timeline:
Satan is in heaven with God, like everyone. Proverbs 8:24, Genesis 3:1
Satan tricks other angels into rebellion. Genesis 3:12
Satan cast down to the Earth, but not in a human body. Genesis 3:14
***Adam and Eve prophecy represented everyone also. Ezekiel 28:16
***Evolution and other human beings existed previously, then were integrated with spiritual beings. Genesis 5:14 Genesis 6:4
***Adam and Eve literally represented only themselves after the fall. Genesis 5:25
Satan gets spiritual "probation" on earth. Retains angelic body. Job 1:6
Satan still trying to prove that everyone else is a sinner but him. Job 1:11
Satan still has some angelic powers from God. Job 1:12
Satan reveals his hand and tries to trap Jesus who is God. Luke 4:3
***Time period, AFTER the birth of Jesus. Rev 12:5
Satan assumes Jesus who is God is vulnerable and about to die on the cross. And there was war in Heaven. Rev 12:7
***Michael saves the day Rev 12:8
Everybody, including Satan, ever involved in rebellion gets kicked out and put in que to be born on earth. Rev 12:9
***Their punishment is to be born on earth, suffer, and die, because that is the wages of sin. Romans 6:23
***God's mercy involves saving the people who were victims in the war, tricked, and were unintentional sinners. Matt 26:28
Satan engineered events to put the beast into power and destroy all the set times. Daniel 7:23
God tells Daniel he's gonna let it happen because the people in that time period are be wicked anyway. Dan 7:8
Apostles warn that the man of lawlessness is about to show up and fulfill all that. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
Satan's Beast comes to power. Rev 13:7
Satan's Beast succeeds. Many atrocities and holy wars are done by the one who set himself up with Christ's name. Rev 13:8
***Rebuilding Zion, bringing back the truth, cool prophecies, and preaching to the whole world happens Rev 14:6
Satan and everyone faces judgement Rev 20:2
—
Theres 861 pages of more stuff to explain, in my bible. But I hope that helps.
"What about satan? He was cast out of heaven too, but was he put into a human body?"
Timeline:
Satan is in heaven with God, like everyone. Proverbs 8:24, Genesis 3:1
Satan tricks other angels into rebellion. Genesis 3:12
Satan cast down to the Earth, but not in a human body. Genesis 3:14
***Adam and Eve prophecy represented everyone also. Ezekiel 28:16
***Evolution and other human beings existed previously, then were integrated with spiritual beings. Genesis 5:14 Genesis 6:4
***Adam and Eve literally represented only themselves after the fall. Genesis 5:25
Satan gets spiritual "probation" on earth. Retains angelic body. Job 1:6
Satan still trying to prove that everyone else is a sinner but him. Job 1:11
Satan still has some angelic powers from God. Job 1:12
Satan reveals his hand and tries to trap Jesus who is God. Luke 4:3
***Time period, AFTER the birth of Jesus. Rev 12:5
Satan assumes Jesus who is God is vulnerable and about to die on the cross. And there was war in Heaven. Rev 12:7
***Michael saves the day Rev 12:8
Everybody, including Satan, ever involved in rebellion gets kicked out and put in que to be born on earth. Rev 12:9
***Their punishment is to be born on earth, suffer, and die, because that is the wages of sin. Romans 6:23
***God's mercy involves saving the people who were victims in the war, tricked, and were unintentional sinners. Matt 26:28
Satan engineered events to put the beast into power and destroy all the set times. Daniel 7:23
God tells Daniel he's gonna let it happen because the people in that time period are be wicked anyway. Dan 7:8
Apostles warn that the man of lawlessness is about to show up and fulfill all that. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
Satan's Beast comes to power. Rev 13:7
Satan's Beast succeeds. Many atrocities and holy wars are done by the one who set himself up with Christ's name. Rev 13:8
***Rebuilding Zion, bringing back the truth, cool prophecies, and preaching to the whole world happens Rev 14:6
Satan and everyone faces judgement Rev 20:2
—
Theres 861 pages of more stuff to explain, in my bible. But I hope that helps.
Honestly, this biblical hopscotch or slice and dice doesn’t seem wrong too you even a little bit?
Honestly, this biblical hopscotch or slice and dice doesn’t seem wrong too you even a little bit?
Joshua wrote:
Honestly, this biblical hopscotch or slice and dice doesn't seem wrong too you even a little bit?
Each verse describes itself, without needing to reference any other verses. So there is no hopscotch. Can you name in specific one you don't agree with?
loocpoc wrote:
And what you wrote is all wrong in its meanings according to the Scrolls. Also Daniel's scroll was not put into the prophecies for a reason.
Really, all wrong? All of those verses are wrong? Not a single one is right. And on top of that, theres a reason I shouldn't trust Daniel's scroll as a prophecy?
Would you be so kind as to correct me then? What do the verses I quoted "actually" mean if I have misread them so?
Joshua wrote:
Honestly, this biblical hopscotch or slice and dice doesn't seem wrong too you even a little bit?
Each verse describes itself, without needing to reference any other verses. So there is no hopscotch. Can you name in specific one you don't agree with?
loocpoc wrote:
And what you wrote is all wrong in its meanings according to the Scrolls. Also Daniel's scroll was not put into the prophecies for a reason.
Really, all wrong? All of those verses are wrong? Not a single one is right. And on top of that, theres a reason I shouldn't trust Daniel's scroll as a prophecy?
Would you be so kind as to correct me then? What do the verses I quoted "actually" mean if I have misread them so?
genny wrote:
You've written a whole lot that obviously needs more explanation, but I want to just focus on this part right now…
WMS brother wrote:
Everybody, including Satan, ever involved in rebellion gets kicked out and put in que to be born on earth. Rev 12:9
***Their punishment is to be born on earth, suffer, and die, because that is the wages of sin. Romans 6:23
***God's mercy involves saving the people who were victims in the war, tricked, and were unintentional sinners. Matt 26:28
So who was satan born as?
What about the babies who die? (See my other post above with questions about that)
God only saves 'unintentional sinners'? What would consititute an 'unintentional sinner'? Because as far as I've seen, everyone has sinned intentionally at one point or another.
I haven't seen in the bible a link between Satan and any other physical person. Other than him giving power to the Beast a.k.a the "man of lawlessness".
Who specifically he was born as, I have not read.
The only verse I've seen that details his existence and powers on Earth after his fall is:
Rev 12:13+ "When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach."
I don't remember this study very well, but the crux of the point is the Dragon has already lost and now we're just waiting for the Judgement. Until that time he's going to try to take as many people down with him as he can. Either directly through things he planned, or spiritually (if) he still even has powers in that capacity.
genny wrote:
You've written a whole lot that obviously needs more explanation, but I want to just focus on this part right now…
WMS brother wrote:
Everybody, including Satan, ever involved in rebellion gets kicked out and put in que to be born on earth. Rev 12:9
***Their punishment is to be born on earth, suffer, and die, because that is the wages of sin. Romans 6:23
***God's mercy involves saving the people who were victims in the war, tricked, and were unintentional sinners. Matt 26:28
So who was satan born as?
What about the babies who die? (See my other post above with questions about that)
God only saves 'unintentional sinners'? What would consititute an 'unintentional sinner'? Because as far as I've seen, everyone has sinned intentionally at one point or another.
I haven't seen in the bible a link between Satan and any other physical person. Other than him giving power to the Beast a.k.a the "man of lawlessness".
Who specifically he was born as, I have not read.
The only verse I've seen that details his existence and powers on Earth after his fall is:
Rev 12:13+ "When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach."
I don't remember this study very well, but the crux of the point is the Dragon has already lost and now we're just waiting for the Judgement. Until that time he's going to try to take as many people down with him as he can. Either directly through things he planned, or spiritually (if) he still even has powers in that capacity.
"Now the serpent"
Revelation 12:9 "the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving"
They are one in the same. snake, serpent, evil one, devil, satan, dragon, have all been used interchangeably to describe the exact same person.
Yes, the Nephilim. The Giants or "Fallen Ones". I wonder from where they fell.
"The nephilim were in the land those days, and also after that, when" … "after that" the Sons of God came. Nephelim is pre-Sons of god. and pre-human women.
"No where does it say an adversary to G-d"
Have you read the New Covenant? He is the ancient enemy, from the beginning, from creation. The great deciever, the father of lies, etc…
"The beasts that were represented were animals in Israel and Judea. Mainly predatory animals."
You mean Babylon* where Nebudchanezzar was talking to Daniel?
"Name 4 kingdoms"
Specifically Babylon itself, media-persia, Greece, and finally Rome.
"It talks about man as a great deciever. One who would remove the previous ideas of man with a new way of thought. Not the ways of G-d."
We agree exactly, that is exactly what happened with the coming of the 4th kingdom. In heaping amounts of persecution, no less.
"Now the serpent"
Revelation 12:9 "the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving"
They are one in the same. snake, serpent, evil one, devil, satan, dragon, have all been used interchangeably to describe the exact same person.
Yes, the Nephilim. The Giants or "Fallen Ones". I wonder from where they fell.
"The nephilim were in the land those days, and also after that, when" … "after that" the Sons of God came. Nephelim is pre-Sons of god. and pre-human women.
"No where does it say an adversary to G-d"
Have you read the New Covenant? He is the ancient enemy, from the beginning, from creation. The great deciever, the father of lies, etc…
"The beasts that were represented were animals in Israel and Judea. Mainly predatory animals."
You mean Babylon* where Nebudchanezzar was talking to Daniel?
"Name 4 kingdoms"
Specifically Babylon itself, media-persia, Greece, and finally Rome.
"It talks about man as a great deciever. One who would remove the previous ideas of man with a new way of thought. Not the ways of G-d."
We agree exactly, that is exactly what happened with the coming of the 4th kingdom. In heaping amounts of persecution, no less.
If you really read Visitors from the Angelic world you would know the answer. I told you about this before in the chapter on preacheing to the dead. As they as babies have not lived against their conscience they must be preached to in the spiritual world as all others who have not heard the Gospel.
If you really read Visitors from the Angelic world you would know the answer. I told you about this before in the chapter on preacheing to the dead. As they as babies have not lived against their conscience they must be preached to in the spiritual world as all others who have not heard the Gospel.
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