- Topic
It makes sense that Zahng and the WMSCOG gets your love, support, money, time, effort, and more. The argument can be made that this is what you should do for god. I get that. Please don't give me a pat answer here. What do you as a member get out of this? My loved on said that she got a nice home and a great family. These are things she had before she joined the WMSCOG and what she almost lost because of this group. If mother gets all of these things what do you get out of this relationship?
Here's the thing. What is the point of a Sabbath, or a Passover or whatever Holy Ritual you want to mention, if the center of that celebration, the deity, is Mickey Mouse or Bozo the Clown ? The point is, they're pointless. So our friends can have all the Sabbaths they want and all the Passovers they want, and all the feasts of Unleavened Fruits they want and all the feasts of Tabernackers they want, they might as well be worshiping a Cinder Block.
Because of these "subsidiary" topics, you fail to realize who you are worshipping. I'm sorry to say but even demons believe in Christ. Doesn't matter how many times your lips worships Jesus, doesn't mean you are worshiping him. If you feel that way then you throw all hope for conversation out the window, because it is because of these "subsidiary" discussions we can know they are God.
Sarah once posted "god won't send me to hell because I didn't worship him on a certain day" I really really hope that you realize that the bible does not confirm that, and the whole bible confirms that if you don't then you aren't truly believing in God. He calls those who don't worship on the sabbath detestable, profaning God, and hating God. Those are pretty harsh words, and if that doesn't still convince you, then nothing will.
Joshua believes that sabbath is not a good way to point out who is right and wrong, The apostles kept Sabbath, they are christians not Jews. Christian definition is One who belives in the messiah, Christ. Do they believe in Christ? yes, then they are Christians, and they kept sabbath.
The apostles paul, sila, and Timothy wrote in
2 thes 2 : Concerning the coming of our lord jesus Christ, (end of the world) 2:3 That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of 'lawlessness' is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. he will exalt himself over EVERYTHING that is called God or is worshiped so that he sets himself up in GOD"S TEMPLE (god's church), proclaiming himself to be God.
2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? and now you know what is holding him back (the apostles!) For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
2 thes chapt 2 shows that the church started to change towards the end of the apostles, that means if it wasn't from the apostles its the work of the Lawlessone. Sabbath was kept by the appostles who were Christians. If you keep something different then it is not from Christ.
Therefore diapers, oops did again, I mean stained, if you don't care about what is true the sabbath or sunday, you really don't care about God at all. so that is why it is important.
God's laws are important to him, not only does it say we are saved by faith, but how many countless times did jesus say if you love me Follow My Father's command or his commands and laws. To love God is to follow his commands the bible testifies to that.
But, FTOS isn't that contradictory? It is either you are saved by faith OR saved by faith plus works. So which is it? Coz the bible plainly states that faith alone is needed in order to be saved. Here let me post those verses:
Rom. 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Himwho justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Even Abraham, Moses and others before Jesus came weren't saved because they obeyed the laws, Galatians 3 states that they were saved by their faith in God. If my salvation was based on Passover, feast or any laws made by God, that would mean I can save myself right? What use was Jesus' sacrifice then?
fromtheotherside wrote:
Because of these "subsidiary" topics, you fail to realize who you are worshipping. I'm sorry to say but even demons believe in Christ. Doesn't matter how many times your lips worships Jesus, doesn't mean you are worshiping him. If you feel that way then you throw all hope for conversation out the window, because it is because of these "subsidiary" discussions we can know they are God.
Sarah once posted "god won't send me to hell because I didn't worship him on a certain day" I really really hope that you realize that the bible does not confirm that, and the whole bible confirms that if you don't then you aren't truly believing in God. He calls those who don't worship on the sabbath detestable, profaning God, and hating God. Those are pretty harsh words, and if that doesn't still convince you, then nothing will.
Joshua believes that sabbath is not a good way to point out who is right and wrong, The apostles kept Sabbath, they are christians not Jews. Christian definition is One who belives in the messiah, Christ. Do they believe in Christ? yes, then they are Christians, and they kept sabbath.
The apostles paul, sila, and Timothy wrote in
2 thes 2 : Concerning the coming of our lord jesus Christ, (end of the world) 2:3 That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of 'lawlessness' is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. he will exalt himself over EVERYTHING that is called God or is worshiped so that he sets himself up in GOD"S TEMPLE (god's church), proclaiming himself to be God.
2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? and now you know what is holding him back (the apostles!) For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
2 thes chapt 2 shows that the church started to change towards the end of the apostles, that means if it wasn't from the apostles its the work of the Lawlessone. Sabbath was kept by the appostles who were Christians. If you keep something different then it is not from Christ.
Please point out to me the reference where the apostles kept the Sabbath post the resurrection. It is not enough to point out that Paul went to the synagogue on the Sabbath because the verse then goes on to say why he went there.
On the other hand, please read Acts 15. This is the first council of Jerusalem in around 50 AD. The apostles clearly spell out what a believer was expected to do. I don't see the Sabbath as a requisite. This cannot be sidestepped by saying that need not have been specified since all knew about it. It was important to spell out all requisites because the council was called to address the dilemas of the gentiles who were getting baptized. It is clear that the Saturday sabbath had already been discarded as mandatory be then.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Therefore diapers, oops did again, I mean stained, if you don't care about what is true the sabbath or sunday, you really don't care about God at all. so that is why it is important.
God's laws are important to him, not only does it say we are saved by faith, but how many countless times did jesus say if you love me Follow My Father's command or his commands and laws. To love God is to follow his commands the bible testifies to that.
That is a personal attack that is uncalled for on the basis of Stained's recent comment. Nothing is gained by personal attack.
I know that Stained has been harsh elsewhere but we all must understand where he's coming from. He has been badly hurt by the wmscog and is lashing out. Not that I want to justify it, just try to understand him.
FTOS, you really need some manners. You continue to taunt Stained asking for more problems. Why don’t you stick to the debate rather than keep at it. Your whole demeanour continues to be somewhat weird. If you are looking for a physical fight then i suggest you go join WWF or whatever. And grow up. You are certainly talking the talk but denying your missions power.
Stained wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
Emil!!! you read my comment wrong its 'when did I say that(stop) I said Mother lives in a church.
Why are you here anyway man ? Don't you have some people bothering to do down @ Target, or McDonalds or Wal-Mart or the Mall ?
Sarah2013 wrote:
FTOS, you really need some manners. You continue to taunt Stained asking for more problems. Why don't you stick to the debate rather than keep at it. Your whole demeanour continues to be somewhat weird. If you are looking for a physical fight then i suggest you go join WWF or whatever. And grow up. You are certainly talking the talk but denying your missions power.
See that's the problem with you guys, You take offence at anything that comes from me or COG overlooking your own words or behavior. So it's ok for you guys cuz your victoms, but you guys can take all the shots you want but for us if we do we are becoming 'problems". If you expect us to have a demeanor with you guys and take you guys seriously then you should controll yourselves also
Elievalkyrie wrote:
But, FTOS isn't that contradictory? It is either you are saved by faith OR saved by faith plus works. So which is it? Coz the bible plainly states that faith alone is needed in order to be saved. Here let me post those verses:
Rom. 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Himwho justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Even Abraham, Moses and others before Jesus came weren't saved because they obeyed the laws, Galatians 3 states that they were saved by their faith in God. If my salvation was based on Passover, feast or any laws made by God, that would mean I can save myself right? What use was Jesus' sacrifice then?
Having Faith means you Follow, Faith = works: that means Faith is works, they are the same thing.
Hebs Abrahm broke faith because he didn't obey god's command. Obedience is better then sacrifice. Obedience is faith, Faith and works, no, Faith is works, works is faith. So we are saved by Faith you are 100% correct, but faith means we obey god's command. You can't seperate the two.
FTOS: You have been very consistent with your weird like attitude. Even enemies show respect. Likewise, in the jungle there is respect and order. A debate or disagreement of beliefs is not for you to use as a means to lash out with to the individual with your vulgar attacks. If you don’t agree with someone, you simply state your reasons why you hold such belief. Still, it doesn’t mean they or you must accept; but to taunt them into becoming verbally defensive negatively is grounds for disorder. If you keep taunting a bulldog in due time he will attack you. You have done this with just about everyone that has disagreed with you. Not everyone is calm, and it’s only a matter of time you’ll be getting a taste of your own medicine.
Sarah, you know you are fun to talk with where r u from? You used the word mate last time, u from australia? Australia is a great place to visit.
Now, you have the right approach. I am mixed European and African.
that's nice, seriously. But you are Australian right, sorry little slow on understanding.
Irish decent.
Ah okay, sarah , I understand that you are angry and i see it. So I would like to understand you don't have to reply here cuz we r talking on another forum.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Thanks for the encouraging post Diapers, oops! I mean Stained! LoLz. If it helps any I can send you some left over huggies.
Seriously. Nobody even knows what this statement means.
He made peace, Stained. So let’s just shake Internet hands and continue with our debates. We all need to make our points.
fromtheotherside wrote:
I think Genny pointed out my point very well on faith and works. As it say "both of you BROKE FAITH when…." "you did no TRUST ME (Trust is also faith) when…." So not obeying God is not having faith! Very good Genny thank you for pointing that out I did not notice that, I will add that to my knowledge!
I see you like tearing down even the forefathers of Faith Joshua. You know they did obey God, but they were commended for their faith which also goes with my other comment that Genny keeps over looking and says her own accusations aboutt he the wmscog. I will put here again try to read it this time.
fromtheotherside wrote:
I agree with your statement that is exactly correct! But anyway you view it, it means they had faith, correct? They wouldn't do it if they didn't have faith.
I can't speak for everyone. But I can say is we are human we are not perfect yet, that is only in heaven. No one on this earth is perfect. Does God account for the fact we try to follow? I hope so and believe it true. Am I perfect, no, I still get mad, I still want to fight the guy who cuts me off on the freeway, I try to fight it but I still loose it sometimes. I wouldn't believe anyone here or brothers and sisters even at our zion that says they are perfect and have no flaws and lives a perfect life even outside of Zion I would never believe that.
Hi fromtheotherside,
I've been unable to post recently, and now I'm trying to find the part you said I "overlooked". Was this it?
I agree that if we have true faith, then good works, obedience, and all will follow. Our lives will show our faith. One thing you and I differ on is what that obedience looks like.
I agree that even though we have faith and seek to obey and please God, that we still fail to do so perfectly, no matter what we believe a life of faith looks like.
However, the wmscog teaches that salvation is based on obedience, and I have seen what they teach about sinning after you are saved. I think it's spelled out pretty clearly here: english.watv.org/truth/sermon/content.asp?idx=1835
Can you explain this a little more please? This sermon says that once you have received forgiveness of your past sins and joined the "truth" (that is, baptism and joining the wmscog), if you sin again then you are out of luck–no heaven for you. Here's a quote:
"All wicked sins we previously committed have been forgiven through the precious blood of Christ in the truth of the new covenant. If we sin again, forgetting His grace, it is a sin of treating as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified us and crucifying Christ all over again and subjecting Him to public disgrace. Such a person who brings disgrace on Christ will never be allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven."
genny, i struggled with the idea that after the passover, if i sinned, i had better hoped father would allow me another one before he returned. to make seem not so harsh to those with "waivering faith" they say how you feel after you sin also shows your faith. but that's definitely not the bottom line.
I believe that if we sin we need to try to repent of it. However, we may or may not reach full perfection while on this earth.
1 john 1:9.
the bible does a good job of placing fear in the hearts of believers. every moment, christians are worrying about sinning and the comming of god. many say they're saved but they don't believe it entirely because they when they do something bad they ask for forgiveness. correct me if im wrong, but from what i've read and understand from real life situations, if you're free, you don't have to keep asking to be set free.
if you sin, you're going to hell. but if you're forgiven you may go to heaven. [here's where the correcting may come in] if you're saved, you're going to heaven. if you're not saved you're going to hell. god never breaks a promise so if you sin, even after you're saved, you're good.. which obviously doesn't make sense because the bible says if you sin, you're going to hell which means you're not saved.
my point, ultimately, is that no one can say they're saved or that they're going to hell until it actually happens. so all these people living in fear of sinning or those that have major confidence that they're saved need to calm down. none of us can tell the future, only the past.
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