- Topic
It makes sense that Zahng and the WMSCOG gets your love, support, money, time, effort, and more. The argument can be made that this is what you should do for god. I get that. Please don't give me a pat answer here. What do you as a member get out of this? My loved on said that she got a nice home and a great family. These are things she had before she joined the WMSCOG and what she almost lost because of this group. If mother gets all of these things what do you get out of this relationship?
So what's your point? So in the bible then in hebrews it should say "forefather of Faith Moses, oh except the one time when he disobeyed. "
fromtheotherside wrote:
So what's your point? So in the bible then in hebrews it should say "forefather of Faith Moses, oh except the one time when he disobeyed. "
Hebrews 11 says that Moses had faith, but it doesn't say that he obeyed perfectly. It also talks about the faith of Abraham, David, Samson… They were commended for their faith, even though they didn't obey perfectly all the time. The point is that you don't have to obey perfectly all the time to have a faith that pleases God.
The point is also that the wmscog sermon said that Moses always obeyed God when he didn't.
The point is also that I've seen the wmscog teach that if you disobey after you have been forgiven, then you are no longer saved and cannot be forgiven again. If that's the case, then no one has any hope of being saved, because who can obey perfectly all the time?
Genny I'm not saying this in a mean way, but didn't I already cover that in my post?
with that moses argument, how about if you have a daughter, and you say "oh she is always such a good girl"… then i gues I should say hey you liar, wasn't she throwing a tantrum yesterday? Do you have to say, "oh she is always such a good girl, oh except for yesterday" you are nit picking. I'm not being mean but really that is. The point is not if you don't obey all the time you can't go to heaven, the point is the importance of works and faith.
Let's not fight about faith. I guess almost all of us here have faith in varying degree. But the big question is "Faith in whom?" We ought to ponder that question.
If we proclaim that we have faith in Jesus and then put our faith in someone else, where do we stand?
If we tell other christians that they will go to hell because they are not following Jesus' commands (this is something a wmscog member has told me) and then we are unable to spell out what are Jesus' explicitly stated commands, which manufactured Jesus are we believing in?
Why do we say we believe in Jesus if we believe in 'mother' about whom Jesus never even broadly hinted during his ministry, while at the same time speaking of His Father so many times?
Would love for FTOS to share on these points
Faith in whom…..
fromtheotherside wrote:
Elie, we don't base salvation on works. I think for you there are 2 things
1. faith
2. works.
but for us it's number 3
3. Faith = works and vice versa.
I think you misunderstood me… My point is either it is "faith" or "faith with works", there is no option no.2 as many of us knows that isn't the case.
The bible is very clear that if you have faith in Jesus, you will be saved. It even go as far to state that salvation is not based on works. I believe this to be true and I will not back down on it. Now here comes people who says you must do "this" and "that" to be saved then that would be very contradictory to what the bible said. To the people that believes "faith plus works" are needed to be saved, then can you answer this question? What happens to the people who had faith but died after without doing any works? Are they saved?
genny wrote:
What's more interesting to me is that one of the wmscog sermons (http://english.watv.org/truth/sermon/content.asp?idx=996), says that Moses always obeyed God, even though the above verses show otherwise.
"Moses, who was a shepherd at that time, was slow of speech and tongue, not eloquent. After being called by God, however, he was filled with God's Spirit, so that he could lead about six hundred thousand Israelite men out of Egypt. During the forty years in the desert, he always obeyed God's will even under all sorts of hardships, so he could become the great leader of the Israelites."
I think everyone is allowed lisence for hyperbole even God used it from time to time
Simon wrote:
so you'd rather him stay blind? at least he wants people to see truth even if he is wrong on what that means
No I don't. But he's getting on my nerves.
genny wrote:
Joshua wrote:
You have mentioned Moses and faith in the same sentence as a kind of proof for your groups teachings and beliefs. Moses did have faith and he did choose to do Gods will in many ways. One of the founding fathers he is but do you remember why he never got to enter the promised land? It's because he did not follow Gods instructions. His faith failed him because or peer pressure.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Actually Moses didn't enter the promise land because he said that it was him and not God, meaning he credited himself not giving glory to God, get your facts straight.
Simon wrote:
could have sworn it was boasting of himself not disobedience
It was basically all of the above, so there is no reason to argue about it.
Numbers 20:12, "But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”"
Num. 20:24, "Aaron will be gathered to his people. He will not enter the land I give the Israelites, because both of you rebelled against my command at the waters of Meribah."
Num. 27:14, "for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes.” (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)"
Deut. 32:52, "This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites."
What's more interesting to me is that one of the wmscog sermons (http://english.watv.org/truth/sermon/content.asp?idx=996), says that Moses always obeyed God, even though the above verses show otherwise.
"Moses, who was a shepherd at that time, was slow of speech and tongue, not eloquent. After being called by God, however, he was filled with God's Spirit, so that he could lead about six hundred thousand Israelite men out of Egypt. During the forty years in the desert, he always obeyed God's will even under all sorts of hardships, so he could become the great leader of the Israelites."
I think Genny pointed out my point very well on faith and works. As it say "both of you BROKE FAITH when…." "you did no TRUST ME (Trust is also faith) when…." So not obeying God is not having faith! Very good Genny thank you for pointing that out I did not notice that, I will add that to my knowledge!
I see you like tearing down even the forefathers of Faith Joshua. You know they did obey God, but they were commended for their faith which also goes with my other comment that Genny keeps over looking and says her own accusations aboutt he the wmscog. I will put here again try to read it this time.
fromtheotherside wrote:
The works of the forefathers of faith are the same as keeping the commands. Moses also did works of keeping the passover and other feasts. When God said to him sacrifice a lamb and put the blood on the door posts, this is also a work of Faith, He believed and followed in faith that God will keep his promise to protect them and free them from egypt.
It not about what the "work" or "deed" is. It's do you have faith that God will do what he promised through that work. It's not the fact that you did the work that matters to God it's the fact that you believed in his word and had faith in him. Can someone say they really have faith if God asks them to do something but they don't do it? they can argue, we are saved by faith. If thats how they feel than why not just do what he asks.
The bible say his commands are not burdensome.
PA wrote:
Hello FTOS-
I just wanted to ask a few questions about your post on faith and works.
First, I appreciate your point on how the two are intricately connected. However, I was wondering if you could elaborate on your point about the Passover in its relation to works and faith.
You gave good examples of the faith and obedience of Abraham, Moses and Noah. I guess when I think of their obedience, I think of it as sacrificial obedience – an obedience that caused them surrender to God no matter how much sense it made to them and no matter what they thought the cost would be for them – because they believed and trusted God. I guess I just don't understand how the Passover is sacrificial obedience that requires the same type of faith of Abraham, Moses and Noah.
Second, are there any other works (or acts of obedience) that are demonstrative of faith besides keeping the Passover? If so, what are they?
And my last question….I am wondering if all devout members of WMSCOG are fully obedient to God in their lives, hence reflecting true faith (as you mentioned, works = faith)? Or if you can't speak for everyone, can you speak just for yourself as a devout member – are your works in perfect harmony with your faith?
I'm guessing these may be loaded questions, but if you can answer them however time allows you, I would appreciate that. Thank you.
I agree with your statement that is exactly correct! But anyway you view it, it means they had faith, correct? They wouldn't do it if they didn't have faith.
I can't speak for everyone. But I can say is we are human we are not perfect yet, that is only in heaven. No one on this earth is perfect. Does God account for the fact we try to follow? I hope so and believe it true. Am I perfect, no, I still get mad, I still want to fight the guy who cuts me off on the freeway, I try to fight it but I still loose it sometimes. I wouldn't believe anyone here or brothers and sisters even at our zion that says they are perfect and have no flaws and lives a perfect life even outside of Zion I would never believe that.
I'm not trying to convince you guys of the Passover or Sabbath or anything else, because what we are talking about is Faith and Works, we don't have to agree on what the work is.
But your point on the Passover compared to the works of the forefathers of faith, Passover is also a sacrifice. So is Christians going to church on sunday or keeping whatever, not to say it is true or false. But aren't you giving your time to God when you go worship him on Sunday or whatever day. You can say it's because you want to, but of course it is, it's the same with moses, he wanted to follow God. You don't think he put his full heart and mind into it? No matter where he was led he went willingly, he wanted to. You can say that keeping a service for an hour and going through the desert for forty years is a big difference but thats in our perspective. To God it's the same and he is pleased with both (I believe and have faith this is true) . in the bible I believe it says somewhere, all he wants is our hearts! Also luke 15 he is more please with one sinner that repents then 99 righteous people. He is pleased and is filled with joy just at the thought that we will follow him and we love him and have faith, no matter how big the work is or how small it is in our eyes.
@Emil, next time I will buy more puctuations.@stained, please stop staining yourself. Tide is great for getting out those stains, my niece had the same problem at night. I feel for you man. (this one I highlighted just cuz it's funny) Laughter is great medicine !
Elievalkyrie wrote:
fromtheotherside wrote:
Elie, we don't base salvation on works. I think for you there are 2 things
1. faith
2. works.
but for us it's number 3
3. Faith = works and vice versa.
I think you misunderstood me… My point is either it is "faith" or "faith with works", there is no option no.2 as many of us knows that isn't the case.
The bible is very clear that if you have faith in Jesus, you will be saved. It even go as far to state that salvation is not based on works. I believe this to be true and I will not back down on it. Now here comes people who says you must do "this" and "that" to be saved then that would be very contradictory to what the bible said. To the people that believes "faith plus works" are needed to be saved, then can you answer this question? What happens to the people who had faith but died after without doing any works? Are they saved?
I'm just reposting this so that it won't get lost with all the other posts. ^_^
Who is asking the question here? Elie or FTOS?
As for the answer, those who looked forward to the messiah ( Old Testament) having faith in his coming are saved. Likewise, having faith in Jesus Christ as a New Testament believer; in spite of if you are knocking on doors or not is salvation. Most of Jesus Christ believers profess their faith one way or the other.
Having said that, we are adviced by the apostles to show (action) that we are believers. Love….. If we sincerely love one another, our action will coincide with our faith. Yet, faith is not works and works is not faith. Ones action, if a true Christian will demonstrate your faith. Still works/action is not what saves you but your faith in God. This is as simple as it is without too much Theology. Bottom line, we need to study our bibles and let God grant us his divine wisdom and not the wisdom of any man – scholars included.
fromtheotherside wrote:
genny wrote:
Joshua wrote:
You have mentioned Moses and faith in the same sentence as a kind of proof for your groups teachings and beliefs. Moses did have faith and he did choose to do Gods will in many ways. One of the founding fathers he is but do you remember why he never got to enter the promised land? It's because he did not follow Gods instructions. His faith failed him because or peer pressure.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Actually Moses didn't enter the promise land because he said that it was him and not God, meaning he credited himself not giving glory to God, get your facts straight.
Simon wrote:
could have sworn it was boasting of himself not disobedience
It was basically all of the above, so there is no reason to argue about it.
Numbers 20:12, "But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”"
Num. 20:24, "Aaron will be gathered to his people. He will not enter the land I give the Israelites, because both of you rebelled against my command at the waters of Meribah."
Num. 27:14, "for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes.” (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)"
Deut. 32:52, "This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites."
What's more interesting to me is that one of the wmscog sermons (http://english.watv.org/truth/sermon/content.asp?idx=996), says that Moses always obeyed God, even though the above verses show otherwise.
"Moses, who was a shepherd at that time, was slow of speech and tongue, not eloquent. After being called by God, however, he was filled with God's Spirit, so that he could lead about six hundred thousand Israelite men out of Egypt. During the forty years in the desert, he always obeyed God's will even under all sorts of hardships, so he could become the great leader of the Israelites."
I think Genny pointed out my point very well on faith and works. As it say "both of you BROKE FAITH when…." "you did no TRUST ME (Trust is also faith) when…." So not obeying God is not having faith! Very good Genny thank you for pointing that out I did not notice that, I will add that to my knowledge!
I see you like tearing down even the forefathers of Faith Joshua. You know they did obey God, but they were commended for their faith which also goes with my other comment that Genny keeps over looking and says her own accusations aboutt he the wmscog. I will put here again try to read it this time.
fromtheotherside wrote:
The works of the forefathers of faith are the same as keeping the commands. Moses also did works of keeping the passover and other feasts. When God said to him sacrifice a lamb and put the blood on the door posts, this is also a work of Faith, He believed and followed in faith that God will keep his promise to protect them and free them from egypt.
It not about what the "work" or "deed" is. It's do you have faith that God will do what he promised through that work. It's not the fact that you did the work that matters to God it's the fact that you believed in his word and had faith in him. Can someone say they really have faith if God asks them to do something but they don't do it? they can argue, we are saved by faith. If thats how they feel than why not just do what he asks.
The bible say his commands are not burdensome.
PA wrote:
Hello FTOS-
I just wanted to ask a few questions about your post on faith and works.
First, I appreciate your point on how the two are intricately connected. However, I was wondering if you could elaborate on your point about the Passover in its relation to works and faith.
You gave good examples of the faith and obedience of Abraham, Moses and Noah. I guess when I think of their obedience, I think of it as sacrificial obedience – an obedience that caused them surrender to God no matter how much sense it made to them and no matter what they thought the cost would be for them – because they believed and trusted God. I guess I just don't understand how the Passover is sacrificial obedience that requires the same type of faith of Abraham, Moses and Noah.
Second, are there any other works (or acts of obedience) that are demonstrative of faith besides keeping the Passover? If so, what are they?
And my last question….I am wondering if all devout members of WMSCOG are fully obedient to God in their lives, hence reflecting true faith (as you mentioned, works = faith)? Or if you can't speak for everyone, can you speak just for yourself as a devout member – are your works in perfect harmony with your faith?
I'm guessing these may be loaded questions, but if you can answer them however time allows you, I would appreciate that. Thank you.
I agree with your statement that is exactly correct! But anyway you view it, it means they had faith, correct? They wouldn't do it if they didn't have faith.
I can't speak for everyone. But I can say is we are human we are not perfect yet, that is only in heaven. No one on this earth is perfect. Does God account for the fact we try to follow? I hope so and believe it true. Am I perfect, no, I still get mad, I still want to fight the guy who cuts me off on the freeway, I try to fight it but I still loose it sometimes. I wouldn't believe anyone here or brothers and sisters even at our zion that says they are perfect and have no flaws and lives a perfect life even outside of Zion I would never believe that.
I'm not trying to convince you guys of the Passover or Sabbath or anything else, because what we are talking about is Faith and Works, we don't have to agree on what the work is.
But your point on the Passover compared to the works of the forefathers of faith, Passover is also a sacrifice. So is Christians going to church on sunday or keeping whatever, not to say it is true or false. But aren't you giving your time to God when you go worship him on Sunday or whatever day. You can say it's because you want to, but of course it is, it's the same with moses, he wanted to follow God. You don't think he put his full heart and mind into it? No matter where he was led he went willingly, he wanted to. You can say that keeping a service for an hour and going through the desert for forty years is a big difference but thats in our perspective. To God it's the same and he is pleased with both (I believe and have faith this is true) . in the bible I believe it says somewhere, all he wants is our hearts! Also luke 15 he is more please with one sinner that repents then 99 righteous people. He is pleased and is filled with joy just at the thought that we will follow him and we love him and have faith, no matter how big the work is or how small it is in our eyes.
@Emil, next time I will buy more puctuations.@stained, please stop staining yourself. Tide is great for getting out those stains, my niece had the same problem at night. I feel for you man. (this one I highlighted just cuz it's funny) Laughter is great medicine !
The Stain you and your ilk cause will never be erased from anyone ever Stained by it. All those of us with any common sense left can do is to try an lessen the Stain caused to others. As for you, I think you should DOUBLE YOUR TITHE and OFFERINGS and increase your LABOR BY 20 HOURS PER WEEK as a show of faith. That way you get more Blessings from your Korean pals who just "LUV U" so much.
Step out of line and see just how much they love you. The evidence is as plain as day so in order for you to continue to propagate this nonsense you're either in on it or you are living a willful suspension of disbelief. I'm not like these other good people here, being all nice to you while you try to insult their intelligence as they try to ease you back into reality. I'll tell you from jump street YOU CAN KISS MY EVERLOVIN' ASS. Now, if you have a job, go get in those extra hours so you can DOUBLE THAT TITHE.
This is in response to Sarah's question. Looking at the posts…I was asking no one in particular, FTOS answered and then many replied to share their own ideas. ^_^
Ok thanks.
Thanks for the encouraging post Diapers, oops! I mean Stained! LoLz. If it helps any I can send you some left over huggies.
fromtheotherside wrote:
I think Genny pointed out my point very well on faith and works. As it say "both of you BROKE FAITH when…." "you did no TRUST ME (Trust is also faith) when…." So not obeying God is not having faith! Very good Genny thank you for pointing that out I did not notice that, I will add that to my knowledge!
I see you like tearing down even the forefathers of Faith Joshua. You know they did obey God, but they were commended for their faith which also goes with my other comment that Genny keeps over looking and says her own accusations aboutt he the wmscog. I will put here again try to read it this time.
fromtheotherside wrote:
The works of the forefathers of faith are the same as keeping the commands. Moses also did works of keeping the passover and other feasts. When God said to him sacrifice a lamb and put the blood on the door posts, this is also a work of Faith, He believed and followed in faith that God will keep his promise to protect them and free them from egypt.
It not about what the "work" or "deed" is. It's do you have faith that God will do what he promised through that work. It's not the fact that you did the work that matters to God it's the fact that you believed in his word and had faith in him. Can someone say they really have faith if God asks them to do something but they don't do it? they can argue, we are saved by faith. If thats how they feel than why not just do what he asks.
The bible say his commands are not burdensome.
There is no point arguing about faith when we don't seem to have an agreement on "Faith in who?" That is the primary disagreement Genny, Joshua or I have with the wmscog. Everything about Sabbath, works, etc. can be subsidiary discussions.
Emil wrote: There is no point arguing about faith when we don’t seem to have an agreement on “Faith in who?” That is the primary disagreement Genny, Joshua or I have with the wmscog. Everything about Sabbath, works, etc. can be subsidiary discussions.
My point exactly! That is why some of the topic of discussion appear pointless to me.
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