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It makes sense that Zahng and the WMSCOG gets your love, support, money, time, effort, and more. The argument can be made that this is what you should do for god. I get that. Please don't give me a pat answer here. What do you as a member get out of this? My loved on said that she got a nice home and a great family. These are things she had before she joined the WMSCOG and what she almost lost because of this group. If mother gets all of these things what do you get out of this relationship?
And I apologize if I offend any member with my former statement. I know some people in there who are great people, I just wish they weren't taken in by this. I feel so sorry for them.
what do we get from this forum? simple… the truth.
what can you possibly get there in budang along side with zhang? … simple… free food and free lodging.
stop trying to paint dramatic pictures that zhang living like a monk in a monastery somewhere at a lonely mountain…. she is not.
who gets free lodging in wmscog?
Uh ok when did I say that I said Mother lives in a church, okay please read my posts correctly okay.
Elie, we don't base salvation on works. I think for you there are 2 things
1. faith
2. works.
but for us it's number 3
3. Faith = works and vice versa.
You keep talking about only 1 and 2 but there is a number 3.
To us faith and works is the same thing. The bible as Simon pointed out also talks about works also.
Think about all the fore fathers of Faith. They had actions that accompanied their faith. Abraham, Issac, Noah, Moses.
*Noah made an ark, because he had faith he followed God's command.
*Moses, he lead the isrealites out of egypt and went through the desert for 40 years, because he had faith he followed God's command.
*Abraham, he was going to offer his son because he had faith he followed Gods command. This was also a test, God tested abraham through works and now he tests us also.
But of course we are not saved because of those works but because of Faith. Now think about this carefully, without faith Abraham would not sacrifice his son to god, no one in his right mind would kill his son and burn him except psychos. But because Abraham had FAITH he did it, or was going to do it as God commanded.
Jesus says in John 6:54 eat my flesh and drink my blood. and the Church of God says this is the passover(let's not dispute about this because this is just to make a point) We are not saying the Passover Bread and wine is what gives us salvation nor does the act of doing it, it's FAITH that GOD'S WORD, eat my flesh and drink my blood and you will have eterenal life, his PROMISE we have faith that because God said so it will happen. Some people argue that : some people just do the action but have no faith then will he be saved? But my answer is clear, you have to have Faith no faith but just action is also dead, faith but no action is also dead. You have to have both.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Do you expect something when you help people? When you do something for the community? When you go to church do they give you money? I never recieved anything from the presbyterian church my friend in Jr high used to take me to. I don't equally recieve anything here.
About Mother having a home. She lives inside a church. Doesn't your pastor live in a home? I remember the pastor at my old presbyterian church had a better house than most of us. He had a two story house with 4 bedrooms. That's nicer than my bachleor apart that I had. So Mother has a nice home it's not a mansion. Well it's a church so it is bigger but it's a church what do you expect.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Uh ok when did I say that I said Mother lives in a church, okay please read my posts correctly okay.
Need I say more?
FTOS, you have actually made a very correct statement on faith without works is dead. However, you appear to be mixing your point up. You have the concept right but actions wrong. Here is why: I agree with you that faith without works is dead, but pay attention here. What is faith? Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. We believe, therefore we anticipate which is the faith. Works is your actions, which is what you are doing (we agree on that). Now, here is the problem, it is one thing to go out spreading the gospel and another thing to go out gathering as many fruits, as wmscog claims to prove you are worthy of entering God’s kingdom or will be one of the 144,000. By so your works appear more important than your faith. I don’t disagree with going out and preaching but what is being preached cannot be misleading. If I go door to door preaching a different doctrine from what is clear in the bible, I am preaching alright but my preaching is a different doctrine than what is in the Bible. So, this means I am preaching a different doctrine. Yet, I am preaching. In that case, I am no longer preaching the gospel of Jesus but of something else. As for works, yes I agree we are to spread the gospel but the gospel of Jesus Christ and not of a sudden other Christ. Yes, it is written: show me your faith without works and i will show you my faith from or by my works. Your mother who is God ought to also set that example to follow and not just delegate it, if she truly loves you as you claim. In addition, works is not just cleaning up the streets and getting recognition for it. Jesus never sought to be recognised by what he did. All the forefathers you mentioned had one unique thing in common, when they spoke with God, God also backed them up in proving He is God. What exactly is the proof you have for believing what you believe? Because someone said here is prophecy unfolding?? We are so easily mislead due to lack of knowledge.
The new name spoken of in the Bible is not Ahn and certainly not Zhang. It can’t be or Jesus’ teaching is now flawed. Jesus made this crystal clear that if anyone teaches a different doctrine other than that which he(such an all knowing God. he knew this would happen) taught that we are not to believe it. He made it clear that even (paraphrased) the very deep believers of him could even be deceived. This is what is going on now. It is better if wmscog created their own bible and left the word(Jesus) alone. However, they know the way to get the masses of Christians and people, would be to distort it and present christ in their midst so people could be in awe while the real plan of action is set in motion. I don’t bother Buddhist, Hindu and the like on their doctrine save we are discussing why i am a christian. They keep to their own beliefs. When we distort the word of God we are causing great distress to mankind. And that, my friend, is a Sin before God – unpardonable. There are great consequences for that.
If you continue to believe that Ahn and Zhang are God based on the way you are being taught, and ignoring all the truth presented to you proving they are not, then I dust my sandals and move on. It’s just that simple. The book of Acts means the “acts of the Apostles.” Their works aside from spreading the gospel of Jesus as they were instructed, entailed supernatural works – not just recruiting people. If God is in your midst as wmscog claims, then I expect the blind, the deaf, the sick, the hospice patients, the poor, the homeless, and…. You get my point, to be preached to. I expect the prison walls to be filled with wmscog members preaching to them but of course they wont because they have made their choices and are no longer deserving of God’s word. See how crazy this all looks???? If they are physically incapable of much, then don’t you think God who is here with you on earth physically would enable you to heal them of whatever it is, meaning the disabled ones. God said he came for the sick.
Don’t get me wrong, there are many, many , fake pastors in the regular churches but, the good news is people are still hearing the real gospel and faith comes by hearing the word of God. The real word of God. The fake pastors will have their rewards. Still you cannot compare their sin to creating a new doctrine other than that which Jesus preached.
Even satan can perform miracles and masquerade as the angel of light. He knows that Bible very, very well. His miracles are toward destruction and deceit. We are not seeing miracles today because of the lack of real faith and true knowledge. TRUE KNOWLEDGE. If we stop picking out scriptures here and there and sincerely study this Bible, it will be smoking up on earth with the real God’s power. And not for money but for the glory of God. So for wmscog, with your god in your midst, I am so shocked all that is happening is the recruitment of healthy people. Sorry but I just can’t accept that. If Jesus appeared to me and said Ahn and Zhang were God (but He won’t because it isn’t true), I would have to tell him with all due respect that it isn’t in His word. That’s how certain I am.
Every religion, recruits, don’t matter if it is satanism, all recruit. So the real question is who is your God. And faith and works are not necessarily the same thing. I can go out there gathering souls just because I am told to do so or, I can go out there gathering souls because I believe and have faith in God’s word.
Pride comes before destruction and I am guilty of that too. I was tricked into that false belief system with those studies, but praise be to God, He opened my spiritual eyes. Jesus is Lord.
Emil!!! you read my comment wrong its 'when did I say that(stop) I said Mother lives in a church.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Emil!!! you read my comment wrong its 'when did I say that(stop) I said Mother lives in a church.
That's what punctuation if for. 🙂
Hello FTOS-
I just wanted to ask a few questions about your post on faith and works.
First, I appreciate your point on how the two are intricately connected. However, I was wondering if you could elaborate on your point about the Passover in its relation to works and faith.
You gave good examples of the faith and obedience of Abraham, Moses and Noah. I guess when I think of their obedience, I think of it as sacrificial obedience – an obedience that caused them surrender to God no matter how much sense it made to them and no matter what they thought the cost would be for them – because they believed and trusted God. I guess I just don't understand how the Passover is sacrificial obedience that requires the same type of faith of Abraham, Moses and Noah.
Second, are there any other works (or acts of obedience) that are demonstrative of faith besides keeping the Passover? If so, what are they?
And my last question….I am wondering if all devout members of WMSCOG are fully obedient to God in their lives, hence reflecting true faith (as you mentioned, works = faith)? Or if you can't speak for everyone, can you speak just for yourself as a devout member – are your works in perfect harmony with your faith?
I'm guessing these may be loaded questions, but if you can answer them however time allows you, I would appreciate that. Thank you.
I think FTOS was perfectly clear in meaning he(?) shouldn't have to correct our understanding
fromtheotherside wrote:
Emil!!! you read my comment wrong its 'when did I say that(stop) I said Mother lives in a church.
Why are you here anyway man ? Don't you have some people bothering to do down @ Target, or McDonalds or Wal-Mart or the Mall ?
so you’d rather him stay blind? at least he wants people to see truth even if he is wrong on what that means
The works of the forefathers of faith are the same as keeping the commands. Moses also did works of keeping the passover and other feasts. When God said to him sacrifice a lamb and put the blood on the door posts, this is also a work of Faith, He believed and followed in faith that God will keep his promise to protect them and free them from egypt.
It not about what the "work" or "deed" is. It's do you have faith that God will do what he promised through that work. It's not the fact that you did the work that matters to God it's the fact that you believed in his word and had faith in him. Can someone say they really have faith if God asks them to do something but they don't do it? they can argue, we are saved by faith. If thats how they feel than why not just do what he asks.
The bible say his commands are not burdensome.
PA wrote:
Hello FTOS-
I just wanted to ask a few questions about your post on faith and works.
First, I appreciate your point on how the two are intricately connected. However, I was wondering if you could elaborate on your point about the Passover in its relation to works and faith.
You gave good examples of the faith and obedience of Abraham, Moses and Noah. I guess when I think of their obedience, I think of it as sacrificial obedience – an obedience that caused them surrender to God no matter how much sense it made to them and no matter what they thought the cost would be for them – because they believed and trusted God. I guess I just don't understand how the Passover is sacrificial obedience that requires the same type of faith of Abraham, Moses and Noah.
Second, are there any other works (or acts of obedience) that are demonstrative of faith besides keeping the Passover? If so, what are they?
And my last question….I am wondering if all devout members of WMSCOG are fully obedient to God in their lives, hence reflecting true faith (as you mentioned, works = faith)? Or if you can't speak for everyone, can you speak just for yourself as a devout member – are your works in perfect harmony with your faith?
I'm guessing these may be loaded questions, but if you can answer them however time allows you, I would appreciate that. Thank you.
I agree with your statement that is exactly correct! But anyway you view it, it means they had faith, correct? They wouldn't do it if they didn't have faith.
I can't speak for everyone. But I can say is we are human we are not perfect yet, that is only in heaven. No one on this earth is perfect. Does God account for the fact we try to follow? I hope so and believe it true. Am I perfect, no, I still get mad, I still want to fight the guy who cuts me off on the freeway, I try to fight it but I still loose it sometimes. I wouldn't believe anyone here or brothers and sisters even at our zion that says they are perfect and have no flaws and lives a perfect life even outside of Zion I would never believe that.
I'm not trying to convince you guys of the Passover or Sabbath or anything else, because what we are talking about is Faith and Works, we don't have to agree on what the work is.
But your point on the Passover compared to the works of the forefathers of faith, Passover is also a sacrifice. So is Christians going to church on sunday or keeping whatever, not to say it is true or false. But aren't you giving your time to God when you go worship him on Sunday or whatever day. You can say it's because you want to, but of course it is, it's the same with moses, he wanted to follow God. You don't think he put his full heart and mind into it? No matter where he was led he went willingly, he wanted to. You can say that keeping a service for an hour and going through the desert for forty years is a big difference but thats in our perspective. To God it's the same and he is pleased with both (I believe and have faith this is true) . in the bible I believe it says somewhere, all he wants is our hearts! Also luke 15 he is more please with one sinner that repents then 99 righteous people. He is pleased and is filled with joy just at the thought that we will follow him and we love him and have faith, no matter how big the work is or how small it is in our eyes.
@Emil, next time I will buy more puctuations.
@stained, please stop staining yourself. Tide is great for getting out those stains, my niece had the same problem at night. I feel for you man.The best response yet, Joshua. You hit the hammer on the nail with this response. Good job and thank God for divine wisdom.
Nice jab Joshua, are we taking this conversation back to debating and taking shots? I did take a shot at stain but only cuz he instigated.
Even though we were talking about faith and works, which elie and pa brought up and not debating about specific doctrine, but insince you want to take it to that route, it's fine with me.
Actually Moses didn't enter the promise land because he said that it was him and not God, meaning he credited himself not giving glory to God, get your facts straight. Your words are weak in what you want to prove.
You want to change the subject and talk about what is man made?
man made is what is not in the bible, I think that your group is a great example of that. You attack what proves you wrong, but god did say that people who believe in man made teachings do get a false elusion that what they believe is real. I can help you if you want up to you.
could have sworn it was boasting of himself not disobedience
Joshua wrote:
You have mentioned Moses and faith in the same sentence as a kind of proof for your groups teachings and beliefs. Moses did have faith and he did choose to do Gods will in many ways. One of the founding fathers he is but do you remember why he never got to enter the promised land? It's because he did not follow Gods instructions. His faith failed him because or peer pressure.
fromtheotherside wrote:
Actually Moses didn't enter the promise land because he said that it was him and not God, meaning he credited himself not giving glory to God, get your facts straight.
Simon wrote:
could have sworn it was boasting of himself not disobedience
It was basically all of the above, so there is no reason to argue about it.
Numbers 20:12, "But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”"
Num. 20:24, "Aaron will be gathered to his people. He will not enter the land I give the Israelites, because both of you rebelled against my command at the waters of Meribah."
Num. 27:14, "for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes.” (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)"
Deut. 32:52, "This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites."
What's more interesting to me is that one of the wmscog sermons (http://english.watv.org/truth/sermon/content.asp?idx=996), says that Moses always obeyed God, even though the above verses show otherwise.
"Moses, who was a shepherd at that time, was slow of speech and tongue, not eloquent. After being called by God, however, he was filled with God's Spirit, so that he could lead about six hundred thousand Israelite men out of Egypt. During the forty years in the desert, he always obeyed God's will even under all sorts of hardships, so he could become the great leader of the Israelites."
Aaron…. There you go.
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