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This debate has been posted several times in other forum post. Do we really have free will or is it predetermined what we will do and say for our entire lives and we only think that we have free will? I read the Word of God like this: He knows everything you are going to do and every decision that you are going to make. Just because God knows what you are going to do and the decisions that you are going to make doesn't mean that you don't have free will. It states that he knows what you are going to do not that he predetermind that you are going to do. He knows the future and he knows the past. This is part of the character of God. If he was really causing you to do his will then all of us would be saved because that is the desire God has for us. This may be my only input on this but please continue to bring your questions in your pursuit of the truth.
Ronita it sounds like you freely came into this religion i don't understand this my research indicates that these people use mind control techniques to bring people into this group, am i wrong?
Carlos wrote:
Ronita it sounds like you freely came into this religion i don't understand this my research indicates that these people use mind control techniques to bring people into this group, am i wrong?
Renita. And no, I didn't freely enter any religion. I don't think they use brainwashing techniques to get/keep people in the group. Though I think that question may turn the topic of this discussion, I think they say things that will make someone doubt what they believe in enough to accept the WMSCOG doctrine. Simon loves chicken. If I were to invite him to dinner, he might say no. But if I say "I'm pretty sure whatever you're about to have for dinner isn't all that pleasant." I've attempted, and probably succeeded, to make him think about his current meal with disgust. Then I say, "I've got chicken." His no might turn into a big maybe if not a yes. I think this is what the members do because that's what I did.
Here's the thing about believing there's no free will.
The implication is that God decided, when he created us, where we would spend eternity. He then kept controlling every move we made until finally I got to heaven or hell as he had decided.
So why did God make me? To control me and have fun making me do what he wanted until he finally consigned me to one of the two places. Pretty much like some of the villanous guys we see in movies. I can almost hear that kind of God laughing heartlessly each time we have pain and suffering.
As kid I learned that God made me to know Him, love Him, serve Him and be happy with Him eternally. Now I have to also believe He made others (I may even be in that list myself) to inflict horrors on them eternally. Yet John writes God is Love. Now all those who believe "no free will" – how do you feel about God's love?
It's not your place to question why God does anything. And if you think it's villianous, think about this. My daughter has toys whose purpose of creation was simply to entertain people. I bought her the toys, she plays with them. Sometimes they're good sometimes they're bad. But my daughter isn't laughing at them like a villian. Later the good toys are now playing a bad guy character and the bad toys are now the good guys. I also don't believe hell exists but that's a different topic. If toys could talk [like in Toy Story] I don't think they would say that my daughter was villianous because she loves all her toys no matter what character they're playing [much like some Christians say about Jesus]. And why should they complain about being made simply for entertainment? Who are they to talk back? The bible says you shouldn't talk back or question God. If you were created for entertainment to God who I believe is neither good nor evil [another topic] get over it. You are nobody to complain or question why God made you for whatever purpose. If you were made to suffer and go to heaven, which I don't see the point at all, now you don't care why you're made? Because you believe you're going to heaven?
People always dismiss key questions when a prize is at the end of the road. Working for long hours 6 days a week but getting a big bonus at the end of the month. Now you don't care why your boss is pushing you nearly past your limit because you're getting a bonus.
But when there's no prize, they begin to either complain or make up a prize to justify why they're doing whatever it is they're doing. It's like working but one of your coworkers tell you we're not getting paid. You don't agree with that so you argue that you must be paid because you're working. You're not working for nothing. But that's not always true. Just because you believe God doesn't want us for entertainment doesn't mean that God doesn't want us for entertainment. Just because you believe God is in control of everything doesn't mean God is in control of everything. Your beliefs don't make instences* facts. When we die, we shall see. And it won't matter if I burn for eternity because God has already predestined that I go there like He has said so many times in the bible!
I would like to see a psychological experiment done where there are a few groups of people. Group 1 is given an easy task, Group 2 is given a harder task, and Group 3 is given very difficult task each with a reasonable reward. Group 4 is given an easy task, Group 5 is given a harder task, and Group 6 is given a very difficult task each with a great reward. Group 7 is given an easy task, group 8 is given a harder task, and group 9 is given a very difficult task each with no reward. I also want the person giving each group their tasks and rewards to be sweet, kind, and a girl. From time to time I want her to give each group sweets and drinks and cheer them on. Basically, I want each group to view her as a good person. Then when each task is done and each reward is given [or not] I want their reactions and thoughts recorded. Then I want her to ask them to do a different task of the same difficulty with the same rewards. Who will do the 2nd task? After that is done, I want her to continue to repeat the cycle 5 times or until no one wants to do anymore tasks. Then I want a different people to be placed in these groups without changing the tasks and rewards. This time, I want the girl to be rude and mean so the people will view her as an evil person. Who will complete the tasks now? Finally, I want different people yet again to fill these groups. This time I don't want the girl to interact with them at all. She will give them their tasks typed out on paper so the people can't decide whether or not she's good or evil. This ought to be interesting.
@ harry I left becuase their doctrine is a whole bunch of boloni ..is fake I was tired of the lies.
The thing is renita that through out the whole bible god gives us free will. The only situation that god does not is with pharow but that was to show his glory. but if you analyze what free will is: Free will" is an expression of the Biblical concept that refers to our right, our freedom, and our responsibility to make the choice between God's will or our own. As a concept it is woven throughout the Bible:
"…Choose today whom you will serve" …Joshua 24:15
"…So choose life in order that you may live."… Deuteronomy 30:19
"…Choose good"… Isaiah 7:15
"…You did evil in My sight and chose what displeases Me"…
Isaiah 65:12
"…Choose knowledge rather than gold"… Proverbs 8:10
Every commandment that tells us "You shall" or "You shall not" is a directive to make a choice between what God wants vs. what we want. He gives us the freedom of choice, or free will.
Every word God uses that implies making a choice is about our freedom of will. When He says "Do" or "Go" or "Be" or "Make" –any word that implies action implies our choice to either follow Him or ignore Him.
renita I know your a smart woman. Look at the words that he uses when god speaks. His always gave us a choice . This is not the wms any more where your like a robot. God has giving you knowledge of good and evil . So from the beg we have had a choice after we ate from that tree
From your analogy of your daughter playing with toys, I see you have perhaps not understood what I was saying. In your analogy, your daughter didn't create the toys. They are inanimate objects. Therein lies the difference.
When we consider the possibility of the absence of human free will and total predestination (not just foreknowledge) we will have to accept the implication of a God who has created people preordaining them to eternal damnation. It begs the question, "why create the ones preordained for damnation?"
The second issue is that if my destiny has been decided before I was conceived, it doesn't matter a bit what I go around doing. I don't even have to believe in God.
The bottom line is that such a situation completely negates the idea of a just God.
emil wrote:
From your analogy of your daughter playing with toys, I see you have perhaps not understood what I was saying. In your analogy, your daughter didn't create the toys. They are inanimate objects. Therein lies the difference.
When we consider the possibility of the absence of human free will and total predestination (not just foreknowledge) we will have to accept the implication of a God who has created people preordaining them to eternal damnation. It begs the question, "why create the ones preordained for damnation?"
The second issue is that if my destiny has been decided before I was conceived, it doesn't matter a bit what I go around doing. I don't even have to believe in God.
The bottom line is that such a situation completely negates the idea of a just God.
She can and has made her own toys. Even imaginary toys. Stop talking to me like "the grip of that verocious cult is wrapped tightly around my neck squeezing the very life and free will out of me". Goodness……. UNDERSTAND THIS, I have had this thought far before I entered the WMSCOG. I don't care what you say about the verses in the bible implying we are given a choice. Cinderella was given the choice to run home at midnight or stay with the Prince in her ragedy clothes. But she decided to run away to make it home before the Prince saw her. That is a fictional story where the author made it appear that Ella had a choice but the author made the choice for her. I believe there is no heaven. There is no hell. When we die, we don't die because we don't really exist in the 1st place. Just like Mario, the wicked witch of the west, etc. Dying but not really because they weren't real. This is the part where I no longer open this thread. You will never change my mind.
LOl the point is not to change your mind , you can believe what you want to believe , we are just stating the facts . This reminds me of my love one when I told her facts about ahn and zang and how fake they were and she still stood by her own mid set that they are god.
king34 wrote:
The thing is renita that through out the whole bible god gives us free will. The only situation that god does not is with pharow but that was to show his glory. but if you analyze what free will is: Free will" is an expression of the Biblical concept that refers to our right, our freedom, and our responsibility to make the choice between God's will or our own. As a concept it is woven throughout the Bible:
"…Choose today whom you will serve" …Joshua 24:15
"…So choose life in order that you may live."… Deuteronomy 30:19
"…Choose good"… Isaiah 7:15
"…You did evil in My sight and chose what displeases Me"…
Isaiah 65:12
"…Choose knowledge rather than gold"… Proverbs 8:10
Every commandment that tells us "You shall" or "You shall not" is a directive to make a choice between what God wants vs. what we want. He gives us the freedom of choice, or free will.
Every word God uses that implies making a choice is about our freedom of will. When He says "Do" or "Go" or "Be" or "Make" –any word that implies action implies our choice to either follow Him or ignore Him.
I agree King!
genny wrote:
Do you believe that the Bible does NOT contradict itself? I do. Now if I try to understand your view of these verses that it is by choice that man can choose God, that would contradict the other statements of the Bible. So how do we settle that? Clearly one is wrong because there is only one truth.
These verses contradicts your belief. Man's heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:14-20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
So I can acknowledge that man on his own cannot go to God but he can if God empowers him and He only empowers people that He predestined.
We are born again not by our own will but God's will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God ordains people to eternal life (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; Rom. 9:9-23).
I don't understand how Eph 2:15 means people are at enmity with God. After reading and re-reading I understand it as man being hostile with man, the "hatred" between Jew and Gentile.
ANYWHO!! I have a question that I think would be properly asked under this topic of Free Will… In Gen 3:15, God placed enmity between the serpent [Rev 12:9] and the people and their offspring. I remember having a discussion about whether or not God created evil which I think this verse kind of implies He did. But I would like to focus my question on God creating this war [Rev 12:7, Rev 12:17] between the devil and us. It is common understanding that 2 people
won't fight against eachother unless there is some sort of hostility bewteen them. Being that God created the hostility between the devil and us, is it "safe" to say He started the war? Hypothetically speaking, if God did not place the enmity between the serpent and the people's offspring would the hatred and war have sprung "naturally"?That quote above is actually from Elie, not me. (Miss you Elie. Hope you are well!)
But you do bring up an interesting question, Renita.
Here's one way to think of it… An analogy might be this. There's a trouble-making kid at my child's school. He's causing grief for my child, and if my child were to start hanging out with him and copying his ways, it would not be good. I would rather my child feel hostility towards this other kid, so that my child would avoid him, not follow his path, not agree with his bullying ways, etc.
In real life with that situation, I'd be having my child try to make friends, be nice, understand why the kid acts this way, and try to be an influence for good in his life. But imagine if it was not a normal, human child, but actually Satan who is already lost and truly evil.
Have you read Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis? I think you'd like it, Renita. He tackles some of the basic questions of faith in a very easy to read manner, like a conversation.
Sorry, I must've deleted too much.
I guess the intention of keeping them seperate through hostility makes.. sense. But it would still be your fault the quarrels between the children exist. You taught your child to hate the bully verses hating the bullying. Naturally the children will teach their children to hate each other, too. Which is what has happened with believers. I think the reason world peace can't be accomplished is because of the hostility God created in Eden. We are at war because God created the hostility between us and can never reconcile because we can't go against God Word.
renita.payno wrote:
You taught your child to hate the bully verses hating the bullying.
I didn't understand this part. Can you explain?
Ever heard the saying "Don't hate the player, hate the game"? God brought anmity between the devil and us. He put hatred between us. As a child until now I am taught and have seen other believers teach their children to hate the devil. To stomp on his head. That's hating the player. But what you presented as part of your previous response was to teach the child to be kind and understand why the bully does what he does. That's more along the lines of hating the game. I've been taught to hate both the devil and what he does, the player and the game.
Of course what I think is nothing as the Scripture says but good parenting in my [meaningless] eyes is teaching others to hate the sin, not the sinner. But God put amnity between Satan and the people [both of which I understand to be sinners] which caused Satan to wage war against us. Satan was created as a deceiver [from what the Scripture implies] not a hater.
It's a stupid question because it can't possibly be answered by any of us but only by God. However, I do think it's an interesting thought.. Is God responsible for the war? Wasn't the serpent punished for feeding Eve's temptation? Hadn't the serpent tricked her, would she had eaten the fruit anyway? It's the same approach I'm taking with Gen 3:15.
Also… what is the war? I'm not fully understanding how we're at war in the 1st place.. =)
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