- Topic
This debate has been posted several times in other forum post. Do we really have free will or is it predetermined what we will do and say for our entire lives and we only think that we have free will? I read the Word of God like this: He knows everything you are going to do and every decision that you are going to make. Just because God knows what you are going to do and the decisions that you are going to make doesn't mean that you don't have free will. It states that he knows what you are going to do not that he predetermind that you are going to do. He knows the future and he knows the past. This is part of the character of God. If he was really causing you to do his will then all of us would be saved because that is the desire God has for us. This may be my only input on this but please continue to bring your questions in your pursuit of the truth.
Hi Kim! I'm doing fine. You? lol.
Thank you for the reminder, Kim. Don't worry, we are just discussing here beliefs and differences in order to gain more insight. I will never claim that my views are 100% certain but still I must fight for what I believe in. ^_^
OK my point is that jesus came to save the lost and give us salvation. If he is controlling our free will why would he come down and die for us if we are already predestine to be saved or some of us not. It does not make sence to me. Why go through all the trouble of coming down and doing all he did for us if we are predestine anyway to be saved. Why have the bible and the commandments and all the decrees ? cause as far as I know you have to follow those laws to be saved.
You wanna know something, sometimes i think WHY? Why would GOD almighty come down here to seek and to save what was lost. Why not just create a fresh batch and make better human beings. looks like it will be a second time he will destroy the world, but save his people, like in the time of Noah.
Then i think wow, we are really special to him, there is so much more to this then meets the eye.
And for him to die on that cross for us, that is the sign of his Ultimate Love for us. This is what Love is all about.
king34 wrote:
OK my point is that jesus came to save the lost and give us salvation.
Exactly my point also. So if you could save yourself, with your own free will, then why do we need a Savior in the first place? Could it be maybe because you can't save yourself?
If he is controlling our free will why would he come down and die for us if we are already predestine to be saved or some of us not. It does not make sence to me.
It makes sense to me in a way that Jesus is the way to salvation. For people to be with God, they need to be holy and perfect because God cannot accept anything less. Being a just God, He have to reward good and punish evil/sin. But since the wages of sin is death (bible), therefore all mankind should have died (not only physically but also spiritually separated from God), so He sent Jesus to pay for our sins, His beloved Son who have not sinned even a single time was the perfect sacrifice and so our sins our forgiven, giving us the chance to enter Heaven. It's like in court, it's wrong to say we are found "not" guilty, we are guilty but since a payment was made (Jesus death), we are "no longer" guilty. But ofcourse there must be a condition, what is it? It is to have faith in Jesus, that He did save you. But then the Bible says, your faith did not come from you. It was given to you so that you will indeed have faith in Jesus because before the creation of the world, God UNCONDITIONALLY selected people whom He will love, they are the "sheep" that will follow Christ. C'mon if you think of it, if God loves you because you are "good" person, then that wouldn't be unconditional anymore right?
Why go through all the trouble of coming down and doing all he did for us if we are predestine anyway to be saved. Why have the bible and the commandments and all the decrees ? cause as far as I know you have to follow those laws to be saved.
Actually, the laws weren't made so that people would be saved. The law was purposely made so that people's sin would increase (Romans 5:20) and that they would be conscious of their sins (Romans 3:20). It was made to show us that no matter what we do, we cannot follow it perfectly. It was made so that we would indeed need a Savior, and so Jesus was sent.
You might ask, why did God do all this? It is to make the riches of His glory known (Romans 9:23) so that people will know and glorify Him. Anyway, this is what the bible seems to be saying and I am just trying to understand as much as I can. Knowing the truth can sometimes hurt but as they have said, it will set you free and in my case, it did. ^_^
Good point, Joshua. If i may add though, The only thing with Hollywood movies is that most of them have been tainted.
So, if God knows the end, from the beginning.. He knows who is going to hell and who isnt, he knows who is gonna repent and who isnt he knows everything your going to do…because he predestined it, so…can he blame us for doing evil?
donttrustzang wrote:
So, if God knows the end, from the beginning.. He knows who is going to hell and who isnt, he knows who is gonna repent and who isnt he knows everything your going to do…because he predestined it, so…can he blame us for doing evil?
I have always thought He shouldn't blame us.
It is the paradox of "No free will". That is one of the reasons why I believe in free will.
emil wrote:
It is the paradox of "No free will". That is one of the reasons why I believe in free will.
Because you don't like the idea of "no free will"?
emil wrote:
It is the paradox of "No free will". That is one of the reasons why I believe in free will.
People who believe the bible, dont really have a choice in the matter
^Not so. There are equally compelling proofs from the bible to refute it. The problem is with interpretation. We all come to the table with a preconceived notion and then interpret to fit that notion.
My preconceived notion is that we have a God who loves us unconditionally. So sue me. ๐
I don't have a preconceived notion. I'm reading the words of the bible and am taking them literally unless it doesn't seem to make sense that way.
Renita, please read the 3 stories in Mt 25. Tell me what those parables mean to you in the context of free will. Did the 10 virgins act out of their free will? What about the 3 servants? Finally what about the sheep and goats?
emil wrote:
Renita, please read the 3 stories in Mt 25. Tell me what those parables mean to you in the context of free will. Did the 10 virgins act out of their free will? What about the 3 servants? Finally what about the sheep and goats?
This is where I differ from many Christians. I don't believe that there is such a thing as what the Scripture means to me. Unless you can show me a verse that says we can interpret the bible our own way, I will never take my own interpretation of any parable in the bible. Plus, I don't need to read the stories because God has already proven that He can and will control someone's heart. God has already made known that He is in control of absolutely everything. To say that the sheep, the servants, the virgins, and everyone else can make their own decisions independent of God shows that He actually does not have complete control over everything and the bible is overexaggerating God's power.
You got me wrong there. I am not saying we are allowed to interpret scripture any way we want. On the contrary, I am saying that it is what most of us end up doing. For instance, I look at the story of sheep and goats and say it shows that man is free to choose to be a sheep or a goat and his judgement will be based on this behaviour. On the other hand, the "no free will" party will say that God chose in advance who should be sheep and who goats. That is the point I was making about personal interpretation. It is precisely why we have over 40000 different denominations, sects, whatever of Christianity.
I also do not deny that God has the ability to control everything including our hearts. People have free will because God allows them, not because he cannot stop them.
If God actually orchestrates man's evil actions then he cannot be an infinitely just God and punish that person.
Exactly. You cannot punish someone whom you forced to do something bad. I honestly think that it's because people don't like the idea of God using us for entertainment is why they don't believe God is responsible for the bad things that happen to us. It's like a mother who believes, truly, that her child can do no harm. So when you accuse her son of doing something, though he did, she will defend him to the death. God has already predestined us to be either sheep or goats just like God has predestined us to be male or female. We have as much control over what we do as we have over when we're born. And just by saying that God is in control of everything, people testify that God is in control of them. And if this is not true, then they should stop saying God is in control of everything.
Acts 16:31:
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
The salvation was available to them by the death and resurrection of Jesus. The gift had been given. But they had to accept and unwrap the gift. A choice had to be made.
emil wrote:
^Not so. There are equally compelling proofs from the bible to refute it. The problem is with interpretation. We all come to the table with a preconceived notion and then interpret to fit that notion.
My preconceived notion is that we have a God who loves us unconditionally. So sue me. ๐
But no matter what, God is an all knowing God. From begining to end, author of life. Alpha and omega….ect If God knows all, He knows who is to repent and go to heaven and who is not going to heaven…God does what he pleases. But my question is can he blame us? Also if its unconditional, he would love us though we do not repent..
He does love us even if we don't repent. However, because he is infinitely just, we have to take the consequences of our lack of repentence.
Being omniscient, He is also aware in advance who will and who will not make the right choices. But His infinite love allows us to choose.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.