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This debate has been posted several times in other forum post. Do we really have free will or is it predetermined what we will do and say for our entire lives and we only think that we have free will? I read the Word of God like this: He knows everything you are going to do and every decision that you are going to make. Just because God knows what you are going to do and the decisions that you are going to make doesn't mean that you don't have free will. It states that he knows what you are going to do not that he predetermind that you are going to do. He knows the future and he knows the past. This is part of the character of God. If he was really causing you to do his will then all of us would be saved because that is the desire God has for us. This may be my only input on this but please continue to bring your questions in your pursuit of the truth.
Hi Elie. I'm back ๐
I enjoyed reading both website you referred me to. And here's one for you (or anyone else who is interested in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism question):
http://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
I like this quote from the end: "Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense."
Either one, taken to the extreme, will have problems. An extreme-Calvinist may end up thinking that we shouldn't bother preaching the Gospel or that the 'un-chosen' don't even have souls because why would God condemn someone to eternal hell when they didn't even have a chance to be saved. An extreme-Arminian may end up being prideful that they were 'wise' enough to accept God's salvation or think of God as too wimpy to overcome man's will.
After all this discussion with you, I have determined that I must be somewhere in the middle. And I bet many other Christians are also somewhere in the middle, if they really thought about it.
This is when I rely on 1 Cor. 13:12, "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
I don't think this is the kind of issue that should cause Christians to cry 'heretic!' but it does make for interesting discussion and deep thinking about the nature of God and man. I liked in the first article you linked to, their point was not to think "either/or" bur "both/and" which will help us find a balance and not fall to extremes.
I have enjoyed being able to discuss with with you because we seem to have an understanding that both of us love Jesus and believe the Bible, so there is no fear of being accused of 'not truly loving God or believing the Bible because you don't agree.'
Elievalkyrie wrote:
genny wrote:
It's our responsibility whether or not to choose to follow God. God does not program us like robots that we must love Him, for that would not be true love. We choose to love Him.
Oh, this is where we are NOT in agreement. lol. Choosing to love God is not biblically supported. It actually states the opposite, "
Romans 3:11b, "there is no one who seeks God." We don't choose God, God chose us.
Since the author of the bible, if you agree with me, is God, we must always look at things in His perspective. Does God need our love? No. We are the ones that need God's love. God doesn't need humans, it is the other way around. God comes first before everything. God is the creator of the world and the story-maker of our lives. In my religion's view, we believe that God has "unconditionally" chosen the people that would love Him before the creation of the world. But ofcourse there is no "forcing" here. Force means there is resistance. People that were destined to love God WILL love God in the end, willingly and voluntarily. Don't you ever wonder why the apostles that Jesus approached went to Him at once when He said, "Come"? Who does that? It is by the power of God, through the Holy Spirit, that empowers us to follow Him. Are we robots because of this? No, robots cannot feel and think. We can. But free will, for me, doesn't exist.
We are naturally disposed to go our own way, not God's way. But God calls to us, 'wooing' us, you could say. If we respond to that call (our responsibility to choose, He doesn't force us to love Him, even though He could), then He empowers us to be able to live 'according to the Spirit' instead of 'according to the flesh.'
I have a question for this statement. If man has the ability to choose God ON HIS OWN, then why does He need to send Jesus on earth? I could have saved myself, I just have to believe in God, then it is pointless to send a Savior, don't you think? You said that "IF" we respond to God's call, this means that you still think it is a man's choice if he respond to God or not. Does that mean that God's will is weaker than man's will? If I could resist God, that means I am greater than Him, right? There would be no other way around it.
As for predestination, I think that is tied in with foreknowledge. If God chose ahead of time who goes to heaven and who doesn't, who will love Him and who won't, and the people didn't have any choice in the matter at all, then we would be robots, and our love for God would not be true love.
Predestination is not the same as foreknowledge. Foreknowing is just knowing ahead of time, this means that God can only know what will happen without any control of it. While Predestination is something that God has set to happen in the beginning. It was meant to happen that way, therefore it is predestined. So ofcourse God foreknows the future because He was the one the predestined it in the first place. Am I making sense? Here's one biblical support. "Ephesians 1:5 tells us that God “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.” According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on the will of God for His own pleasure. How can you explain this if we are the one, with our own free will, "chooses" to follow?
Jesus stands at the door and knocks, waiting to be let in (Rev. 3:20). He doesn't bust it down to get in, nor does He padlock it so the owner can't let Him in. This is not to say that God doesn't have the power to do so, but He refrains so people's responses can be genuine. That's what "free will" means to me–not being programmed by God that I must choose Him.
I think you phrase the Revelation 3:20 wrongly. It was not stated that Jesus was waiting to be let in at all. Whether you let Him in or not is already predestined. As I have said, God doesn't "FORCE" us to do anything. He doesn't have to. What you do is already what He wills that you will do and NO He doesn't will us to sin because we sin on our own, it's in our nature. So if all my statement is true, does that mean our love would not be genuine? Can you please describe genuine love? Nobody knows more about genuine love than God. He loves His chosen people with no condition. Esau was more kind that Jacob who was a trickster. God still loved and chose Jacob. It was already meant to be that way. Human love can never be compared to divine love. When we love, most of the time, it is conditional. At the back of our minds, we always expect something in return, no matter how small, either from that person per se or from God. Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God". See? Our faith did not come from ourselves, so you cannot even take credit that you believed because it is God that gave you the gift of faith.
1 john 4:19 (no free will)
We love God because he first loved us therefore there is no such thing as free will.
genny wrote:
Either one, taken to the extreme, will have problems. An extreme-Calvinist may end up thinking that we shouldn't bother preaching the Gospel or that the 'un-chosen' don't even have souls because why would God condemn someone to eternal hell when they didn't even have a chance to be saved. An extreme-Arminian may end up being prideful that they were 'wise' enough to accept God's salvation or think of God as too wimpy to overcome man's will.
Welcome back Genny. ^__^ Please read again the statement above, it stated an "extreme-Calvinist". There are some Calvinist (our group calls them Hypercalvinist) that believes that they shouldn't preach the gospel anymore but I would like to clarify that not all Calvinist think of that. Some are like me that believe we can never be sure who the chosen are so we MUST always preach the gospel.
After all this discussion with you, I have determined that I must be somewhere in the middle. And I bet many other Christians are also somewhere in the middle, if they really thought about it.
By being in the middle, can you summarize all your belief in one paragraph for me? lol. It is just so I can see where you really stand or in which part do we still differ.
This is when I rely on 1 Cor. 13:12, "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
I like this verse you provide. It has a very deep meaning. In my part, I view this "reflection" to refer to the time where I did not yet hold a Calvinistic view of things.
I don't think this is the kind of issue that should cause Christians to cry 'heretic!' but it does make for interesting discussion and deep thinking about the nature of God and man. I liked in the first article you linked to, their point was not to think "either/or" bur "both/and" which will help us find a balance and not fall to extremes.
I have enjoyed being able to discuss with with you because we seem to have an understanding that both of us love Jesus and believe the Bible, so there is no fear of being accused of 'not truly loving God or believing the Bible because you don't agree.'
Yes, that is the most important thing here. Understanding and loving Jesus. I never hold the belief that if you are not Calvinist, you are not truly loving God, that is a stupid notion given by other religions that borders on cult teachings. Anyway, I would also like to give you one article again, Genny. lol. This is very interesting, I hope you like it. Its about monergism (pro-Calvinism) and synergism (Pro-Arminian). I would like to hear your thoughts about it also. Thanks!
mpl wrote:
We love God because he first loved us therefore there is no such thing as free will.
I think mpl just sided with me. LOL. Care to share more of your thoughts on this mpl? ^__^
I think you forgot the link to the article… I'd like to read it. ๐
Opps… sorry! lol. Here it is… http://www.gotquestions.org/monergism-vs-synergism.html
I believe there is no free-will as well.
So if there is no free will, Adam and Eve deliverately were made to sin in the garden by god?
king34 wrote:
So if there is no free will, Adam and Eve deliverately were made to sin in the garden by god?
Yes, because he had already written out their lives of what they will or won't do, how long they will live, etc.
interesting..So in other words your saying that we are amusement for god sort of like a movie . I think I must disagree with . Idk it just sounds crazy.
king34 wrote:
interesting..So in other words your saying that we are amusement for god sort of like a movie . I think I must disagree with . Idk it just sounds crazy.
I never said we were an amusement for God. By the words in the Bible, God doesn't seem very amused by or pleased with us. But God is in complete control of us. Whatever we do is not because of our own will but because of God's will.
well it sounds like amusement. If you are controlling people to do what you want . Thats why I think we have free will. Adam and eve made their choice to sin in the garden. Even if you read the story adam was refuting to eat from it , he thought about it before eating it . It was not like he was a robot. The only account that I can remember of god kind of controlling some one was with the pharow when he harden his heart so he can send the plagues.but I def. understand your point of view It can be debated from both sides.
It definitely can be debated. I'm pretty sure you've watched movies before. People receive awards for how well they act. In a movie, if the actors are bad at what they're doing and come across as robots, then chances are most people are going to hate the movie and s/he won't get the award. But if the actors are really good at what they're doing, so good that it appears like a real life situation, then most people will enjoy the movie and those actors will probably get the award. My point is just because someone disputes an idea, that doesn't mean they disputed with their own will. Shrek disputed the idea of going to Far Far Away to confront the king but that doesn't mean he did it with his own will. If you rewound his life, he would do it again and again and again because that is how the animators planned that particular moment of his life. I used Shrek as an example being Shrek is not a real, live being but yet shows the emotions and has the same thought process of a real, live being.
And just because some is controlling another person, that doesn't mean they're doing it for fun. God is very conceited and has every reason to be. I don't know why God would create people they way God did. Or why God created this universe with the ability to contain evil. I haven't a clue. But God did and with many verses in the Bible, it looks as though we have free will but all along we are unknowingly following a script line for line.
I would say that prob is a combination of both. I think that he might have a path for you and its up to you if you want to follow it
king34 wrote:
I would say that prob is a combination of both. I think that he might have a path for you and its up to you if you want to follow it
I've also thought about the theory of Goosebumps. Have you read the books where you have an option between 2 paths in the book. One leads you to death and the other leads you to death? Lol. I never survived those books but at the same time I think they were written for you to die.. Anywho, I imagined that we do have a choice but the only choices we have are those that God provide but in the end we get the same result.
Example: You have a lottery ticket and God has predestined you to win. You have plenty of choices of many combinations of numbers. You choose 12 25 56 69 98 and win the lottery. But let's say you didn't choose those numbers. Let's say you chose 54 52 56 58 55. You still won the lottery. It doesn't matter what choice you make, God has predestined something to happen so it will happen. But then I just get lead back into the idea that you only thought of those numbers becuase God put those numbers in your head, not because you thought of them alone.
Before you guys misunderstand, let us first clarify the meaning of "Free Will" that I am talking about here.
First, I will tell you what "free will" is not. The free will I am debating with here is not the same with Volitions or Choices. If you ask, are we able to freely choose what we want and is accountable for it? Then I will definitely say yes.
So what is the Free will that I am talking about?
Greek pagan philosophers first developed the concept of "free will" otherwise calling it as "Autonomy" or giving a short phrase "a law to oneself". If applied in religion, this concept implies that it is man, with his own "free will", who have chosen to follow God and therefore making him responsible for his own salvation. This is what I am opposing to here.
You see, the bible is very clear in stating that everything is predestined. This word, however, is being confused with "foreknowledge". Predestination means "to determine beforehand", while Foreknowledge just means "knowing beforehand". For example, a prophet can be given insight to the future, therefore he has foreknowledge of what will happen but that doesn't mean it was the prophet who predetermined it. So we should attribute predestination to God only since only He can do it being the Creator and foreknowledge we can attribute to both God and man (granting he has that ability).
So, the very basic question here is: If God have "predetermined" everything to happen, how could you say that man has a free will or have freely chosen on his own to follow and love God?
king34 wrote:
I would say that prob is a combination of both. I think that he might have a path for you and its up to you if you want to follow it
King34, what if the path God gave you is the path to salvation, if it is still up to you to follow or not, and you decided not to follow when in fact God wanted you to, does this mean your "will" is stronger than God's?
I think I get what your saying..Idk but I feel that we are on the same page. God has a plan for you is up to you if you want to follow it. I dont thikn that my will is stronguer than gods will but I do think that he gives you a choice. And he does not interfere with it. but I also think that god chooses who he is going to save or have his grace. Thats why I think that it can be both. People who are pre destined to be saved by his grace and people that have to do work to earn it in other words.
How can it be both, how can you reconcile such two contradictory things? It's either this one or that, you can't have both if you want a logical explanation. Though I am trying to see your point, I really can't see how the two ideas can coexist without contradicting each other. Care to explain a little more? Where does God's "interference" begins and ends? Did He just created humans and then sit backs, relax and watch how humans live out their life?
Kim wrote:
In my opinion our Author of Life wrote two stories for each of us. One is joyful has a happy ending, the other has terrible consequences, If we do good as he has instructed us to do, we will make it to the kingdom of heaven. If we do bad like the ruler of this world, the lake of fire awaits us. So our free will is at play always, we chose which path we want to take everyday and every hour by the decisions we make.
king34 wrote:
I think I get what your saying..Idk but I feel that we are on the same page. God has a plan for you is up to you if you want to follow it. I dont thikn that my will is stronguer than gods will but I do think that he gives you a choice. And he does not interfere with it. but I also think that god chooses who he is going to save or have his grace. Thats why I think that it can be both. People who are pre destined to be saved by his grace and people that have to do work to earn it in other words.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
How can it be both, how can you reconcile such two contradictory things? It's either this one or that, you can't have both if you want a logical explanation. Though I am trying to see your point, I really can't see how the two ideas can coexist without contradicting each other. Care to explain a little more? Where does God's "interference" begins and ends? Did He just created humans and then sit backs, relax and watch how humans live out their life?
Guys sorry to jump in the conversation, but we must remember that with GOD all things are possiable and we must not forget that the bible says
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.
Hi Eli, how are you ๐
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