- Topic
This debate has been posted several times in other forum post. Do we really have free will or is it predetermined what we will do and say for our entire lives and we only think that we have free will? I read the Word of God like this: He knows everything you are going to do and every decision that you are going to make. Just because God knows what you are going to do and the decisions that you are going to make doesn't mean that you don't have free will. It states that he knows what you are going to do not that he predetermind that you are going to do. He knows the future and he knows the past. This is part of the character of God. If he was really causing you to do his will then all of us would be saved because that is the desire God has for us. This may be my only input on this but please continue to bring your questions in your pursuit of the truth.
genny wrote:
I was going to say the same thing about the word "know". =) It is more of a personal sense than a general sense. But it still doesn't make sense that the translation would change the word to "love." That gives it a different sense entirely for me.
You have to go back to the original word. I think it was written in Greek. I posted a translation for the word "know" in above comments.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
It would make sense to you in that way because you have a different opinion in mind. You are still in a position that man has free will.
When we first started this conversation I thought you and I had the same view, but it became clear that we do differ on this point. No wonder I had been confused by some of your earlier comments. lol ๐
LOL. No my view is that man does not have free will and is unable to come to God on his own.
This verse from Jeremiah is comparing the people from a leopard trying to "change" his spots to a man trying to stop doing evil. This is not a contrast, this is stating likeness. You have not understand correctly. The Young's Literal Translation bible if stated in another way to be better understood is that, "Man can only do good when the time comes that a leopard can change his spots at will WHICH is impossible to happen by the way."
But it is not impossible for everyone. Otherwise Paul would not have written Romans 6:17-19 , "But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. …
Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness."
or 1 Corinthians 6:8-11, "…Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
Do you believe that the Bible does NOT contradict itself? I do. Now if I try to understand your view of these verses that it is by choice that man can choose God, that would contradict the other statements of the Bible. So how do we settle that? Clearly one is wrong because there is only one truth.
These verses contradicts your belief. Man's heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:14-20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
So I can acknowledge that man on his own cannot go to God but he can if God empowers him and He only empowers people that He predestined.
We are born again not by our own will but God's will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God ordains people to eternal life (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; Rom. 9:9-23).
These views of whether or not we have free will (or how much of it is free) have been debated for centuries. I don't think we will come to agreement here, but it is always good to be able to understand each other even if we disagree. Here's how I would describe my concept of how free will fits in with the concept of being "chosen," as an analogy.
If I'm a coach at middle school here with 100 students, and I have to put together a sports team, and I have no limit of how many people can be on the team, how will I chose who to put on the team roster? Let's say I know ahead of time not just who would say yes to being asked, "Do you want to be on the team?" but also which of those who say yes would really mean it by actually participating in the games and practices and not just flake out. (Like God knows what will happen before it happens.) I put out the bulletin for the whole school, "Who wants to be on the team?" Each student has the free choice to come for try-outs, and whether to accept the request to join or drop out of the team or not. But I already knew beforehand who would be the ones who would say yes and mean it. They are the "chosen" but they had the free will to join.
Hope that makes sense.
This is a good analogy. But this only points out that man is free to choose and they ARE free to choose. I am not saying they don't have the right to choose. But free will is different from free choice. Free will would makes sense once you disregard the coming of Jesus. If people by themselves have the free will to "join" on God's team, then God doesn't have to send a Saviour on earth. Jesus' coming and sacrifice would be meaningless. IF I can save myself, then I don't need a Saviour. But since Jesus was indeed needed, this means that I cannot save myself. Your analogy also only explains the "foreknowledge" of God but not predestination. If you are predestined by God to do something, you WILL do it. And He foreknows what you are going to do because He predestined you to do it. You joining the team or not is all according to God's plan.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
When we first started this conversation I thought you and I had the same view, but it became clear that we do differ on this point. No wonder I had been confused by some of your earlier comments. lol ๐
LOL. No my view is that man does not have free will and is unable to come to God on his own.
I figured that out by page 2. ๐
This is a good analogy. But this only points out that man is free to choose and they ARE free to choose. I am not saying they don't have the right to choose. But free will is different from free choice. Free will would makes sense once you disregard the coming of Jesus. If people by themselves have the free will to "join" on God's team, then God doesn't have to send a Saviour on earth. Jesus' coming and sacrifice would be meaningless. IF I can save myself, then I don't need a Saviour. But since Jesus was indeed needed, this means that I cannot save myself. Your analogy also only explains the "foreknowledge" of God but not predestination. If you are predestined by God to do something, you WILL do it. And He foreknows what you are going to do because He predestined you to do it. You joining the team or not is all according to God's plan.
I don't see a difference between free will and free choice. What is the difference to you?
I find this an interesting topic, but I don't think we'll ever know for sure until we see God and ask Him about it. In any case, it's curious to explore, as long as it's not something that will cause animosity and division between us as Christians, if we still agree on the basics of who Jesus is and what He did for us.
Yes, it is indeed interesting.
The free will that I am talking about is "The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."
This implies that man can change what God will's for him and he can change his destiny. This is what I am against. I believe that we are free to choose but we cannot choose to change what God has destined for us. Can you imagine how chaotic it would be that man can actually thwart God's plans? I find it unacceptable because the creation cannot simply be more powerful than the Creator.
Free choice results from man's decision. Our decisions are affected by our preference. Man's preference depends on man's nature, therefore man's will is limited (So it is not FREE) because we cannot escape from our nature. According to the Bible, man's nature became sinful after The Fall. Therefore, when man chooses to do good, he is actually going against his nature. This is why, if we are honest to ourselves, it is so easy to do bad things and we sometimes have to convinced ourselves to do good things. This is according to Paul, "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." Sin is living within us. But since we ARE doing good, that means that there is something in us that is making us do the right thing. I believe that it is God, through the so-called "conscience" and by the empowerment by the Holy Spirit, that makes us realize that what we are doing is displeasing to Him. God regenerates us so that we are "born again".
Anyway, as I have said in previous comments, this is a very hard concept to explain. But I am very open for more discussions with you on this.
Oh, see… it looks like we are not that far apart. ๐ I think we mainly have a difference in sematics here.
When I hear Christians talk about 'free will,' I understand them to mean not that we have an unencumbered, uninfluenced heart, but that it's our responsibility whether or not to choose to follow God. God does not program us like robots that we must love Him, for that would not be true love. We choose to love Him.
We are naturally disposed to go our own way, not God's way. But God calls to us, 'wooing' us, you could say. If we respond to that call (our responsibility to choose, He doesn't force us to love Him, even though He could), then He empowers us to be able to live 'according to the Spirit' instead of 'according to the flesh.'
As for predestination, I think that is tied in with foreknowledge. If God chose ahead of time who goes to heaven and who doesn't, who will love Him and who won't, and the people didn't have any choice in the matter at all, then we would be robots, and our love for God would not be true love.
Jesus stands at the door and knocks, waiting to be let in (Rev. 3:20). He doesn't bust it down to get in, nor does He padlock it so the owner can't let Him in. This is not to say that God doesn't have the power to do so, but He refrains so people's responses can be genuine.
That's what "free will" means to me–not being programmed by God that I must choose Him.
(lol — now I've got the Princess Bride's minister speaking in my head with his funny voice, "love, true love, will follow you, forever…")
But the people of God are chosen. They bible clearly does say they are chosen. I think I don't have to show anyone cuz most of you already seen them. Also free will means that yes we do choose but God leads us and helps us to make the right choice. Think about the israelites. Every time they did something where they strayed off the path what did God do? He did a miracle or a wonderous event to make them believe again.. That is how he leads those with free will that HE chose to believe in him. God knows what makes us tick and what catches our interest and what will make us believe. Free will yes but he chose who chose and He will have them. Can you show verses that state that God did not choose? We all know the verses that say He did.
genny wrote:
It's our responsibility whether or not to choose to follow God. God does not program us like robots that we must love Him, for that would not be true love. We choose to love Him.
Oh, this is where we are NOT in agreement. lol. Choosing to love God is not biblically supported. It actually states the opposite, "
Romans 3:11b, "there is no one who seeks God." We don't choose God, God chose us.
Since the author of the bible, if you agree with me, is God, we must always look at things in His perspective. Does God need our love? No. We are the ones that need God's love. God doesn't need humans, it is the other way around. God comes first before everything. God is the creator of the world and the story-maker of our lives. In my religion's view, we believe that God has "unconditionally" chosen the people that would love Him before the creation of the world. But ofcourse there is no "forcing" here. Force means there is resistance. People that were destined to love God WILL love God in the end, willingly and voluntarily. Don't you ever wonder why the apostles that Jesus approached went to Him at once when He said, "Come"? Who does that? It is by the power of God, through the Holy Spirit, that empowers us to follow Him. Are we robots because of this? No, robots cannot feel and think. We can. But free will, for me, doesn't exist.
We are naturally disposed to go our own way, not God's way. But God calls to us, 'wooing' us, you could say. If we respond to that call (our responsibility to choose, He doesn't force us to love Him, even though He could), then He empowers us to be able to live 'according to the Spirit' instead of 'according to the flesh.'
I have a question for this statement. If man has the ability to choose God ON HIS OWN, then why does He need to send Jesus on earth? I could have saved myself, I just have to believe in God, then it is pointless to send a Savior, don't you think? You said that "IF" we respond to God's call, this means that you still think it is a man's choice if he respond to God or not. Does that mean that God's will is weaker than man's will? If I could resist God, that means I am greater than Him, right? There would be no other way around it.
As for predestination, I think that is tied in with foreknowledge. If God chose ahead of time who goes to heaven and who doesn't, who will love Him and who won't, and the people didn't have any choice in the matter at all, then we would be robots, and our love for God would not be true love.
Predestination is not the same as foreknowledge. Foreknowing is just knowing ahead of time, this means that God can only know what will happen without any control of it. While Predestination is something that God has set to happen in the beginning. It was meant to happen that way, therefore it is predestined. So ofcourse God foreknows the future because He was the one the predestined it in the first place. Am I making sense? Here's one biblical support. "Ephesians 1:5 tells us that God “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.” According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on the will of God for His own pleasure. How can you explain this if we are the one, with our own free will, "chooses" to follow?
Jesus stands at the door and knocks, waiting to be let in (Rev. 3:20). He doesn't bust it down to get in, nor does He padlock it so the owner can't let Him in. This is not to say that God doesn't have the power to do so, but He refrains so people's responses can be genuine. That's what "free will" means to me–not being programmed by God that I must choose Him.
I think you phrase the Revelation 3:20 wrongly. It was not stated that Jesus was waiting to be let in at all. Whether you let Him in or not is already predestined. As I have said, God doesn't "FORCE" us to do anything. He doesn't have to. What you do is already what He wills that you will do and NO He doesn't will us to sin because we sin on our own, it's in our nature. So if all my statement is true, does that mean our love would not be genuine? Can you please describe genuine love? Nobody knows more about genuine love than God. He loves His chosen people with no condition. Esau was more kind that Jacob who was a trickster. God still loved and chose Jacob. It was already meant to be that way. Human love can never be compared to divine love. When we love, most of the time, it is conditional. At the back of our minds, we always expect something in return, no matter how small, either from that person per se or from God. Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God". See? Our faith did not come from ourselves, so you cannot even take credit that you believed because it is God that gave you the gift of faith.
longhaul wrote:
But the people of God are chosen. They bible clearly does say they are chosen. I think I don't have to show anyone cuz most of you already seen them. Also free will means that yes we do choose but God leads us and helps us to make the right choice. Think about the israelites. Every time they did something where they strayed off the path what did God do? He did a miracle or a wonderous event to make them believe again.. That is how he leads those with free will that HE chose to believe in him. God knows what makes us tick and what catches our interest and what will make us believe. Free will yes but he chose who chose and He will have them. Can you show verses that state that God did not choose? We all know the verses that say He did.
I take it that you are in agreement with me here longhaul? LoL.
Yes totally Eli, I think of it like this. There is a man walking down the street. God is all knowing and knows exactly where that man is going and what he will do, that is the free will part, he has the freedom to do and think and go where he wants, but God already knows this man thoughts. Down the street there is a mugging going on and the theif has a gun and intent to shoot anyone who gets in the way. God does not want this man to be hurt because he has a special plan for him in the future. So god who knows everything, knows this man Loves cannaries(think I spelled this wrong I mean the bird canary) So he sends one down in his path. The man sees the bird and stops and tries to get the bird to come to him so he could touch it. It gives the man just enough time so this incident passes. Also just so happens that the man reads about the incident in the newspaper the next day, 2 men got shot because they tried to stop the mugging and one man got hit by a stray bullet. The strange thing is as the man thinks about this is that in that neighborhood there are no canarries just flying around, so the man thinks wow there must be some type of divine intervention here. And slowly but surely he starts to believe. Did God make him believe? No but he did show the man the truth that god exists helping him to believe. As for the men that got shot and died? what about them. Sadly you can say no they were not chosen to be saved but made as a tool so God can save that man. God is the pottor and if he wants to make a pot that he made to destroy that's up him who are we to question that. But some people say o no thats not right why would god let those men be hurt why would god this and that. but that's the fact even the bible says this. Some where made for greatness some were made to be destroyed.
LOL. That's a good analogy. I have also encountered many situations like that all my life. But let's not forget the workings of the Holy Spirit also. We don't only believe because of outward physical signs but also within us, there is something that is empowering us to believe in God. I remember months ago when I tested myself into thinking that God doesn't exist. Well, I just couldn't. I can't explain it. It's like myself wouldn't let me or something like that. I couldn't NOT believe. Hmmm… Your views are kinda same like mine. Have you been reading John Calvin's theology?
Now I'm starting to wonder if we are talking about the same thing because I agree with much of what you say (both Elie and longhaul), but either I must not be explaining myself well, or we each have a different focus here, or something. So let me try once more and see if we are on the same page…
I totally agree that God intervenes in our lives. That He might put a canary across someone's path because he has a purpose in mind. That He will arrange circumstances to let us know He is there. That He reaches out to us in order that we might choose Him. That Jesus' sacrifice made it possible for us to be reconciled with God. ('possible' is probably the wrong word, but I can't think of another right now.)
Now I understand you to be saying that it is God's choice who will be saved and who will not, and individuals have no influence in the matter–they really do not choose for themselves at all. The people God chooses to be saved will be, no matter what they do. Likewise, the people God chooses not to be saved won't be, no matter what they do. Is this what you are saying, Elie?
I may very well end up finding out in heaven that I really have less choice in life than I think, but I believe the Bible allows for a different view.
I think the view that people are already predestined for either heaven or hell, no matter what they do, can lead to dangerous consequences–people not sharing the gospel message ('why bother when their fate's already decided'), feeling trapped in their sinful state ('God will never accept me'), feeling license to live ungodly lives ('God has already chose me anyway'), Jesus' sacrifice is meaningless ('God does the choosing so why did Jesus need to die?'), etc. I'm not saying these thought processes are right, but they can naturally progress from this view.
That's why, even if I find out later that I'm wrong, if the Bible can allow for the view that we do have some influence over our salvation (in that we can decide to choose God), I will stick with that view, and keep spreading the gospel, keep trying to live a life pleasing to God, and keep thinking that Jesus' sacrifice is meaningful because it shows God reaching out to save us.
Elie, I think you, like me, are trying to find a balance here, when you say, "People that were destined to love God WILL love God in the end, willingly and voluntarily." See? Like me, you also think that the choice to love God must come 'willingly and voluntarily.'
Roman 8:29, "For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son…"
It's just that I think you focus on the predestination part (a person responds to and chooses God because God decided ahead that this person will choose Him), and I focus on the foreknowledge part (God chooses the person He knows will respond to and choose Him).
I don't think this is the kind of argument that we need to get our claws out and fight over. ๐ It's just good to understand the different views and possibilities.
I've been trying to think how this topic relates to the WMSCOG. I think maybe it's this way…
The WMSCOG teaches that either you are a 'child of God' or you are not. If you are, you will respond to their message. If you do not respond to their message, do not understand it, argue with it, etc. then you are not a 'child of God' because if you were you would hear God's voice and respond. (Or maybe I should say gods' voices, plural in their view.) If you do not respond, they tend not to want to spend time with you trying to convince you because you are already a lost cause. They want to find the 'lost brothers and sisters' and you either are one or you're not.
What do you think?
genny wrote:
Now I'm starting to wonder if we are talking about the same thing because I agree with much of what you say (both Elie and longhaul), but either I must not be explaining myself well, or we each have a different focus here, or something. So let me try once more and see if we are on the same page…
I totally agree that God intervenes in our lives. That He might put a canary across someone's path because he has a purpose in mind. That He will arrange circumstances to let us know He is there. That He reaches out to us in order that we might choose Him. That Jesus' sacrifice made it possible for us to be reconciled with God. ('possible' is probably the wrong word, but I can't think of another right now.)
First, I want to say sorry for the late-coming reply. I got held back by family matters from opening my internet for 3 days! lol. Okay, let's start.
Now I understand you to be saying that it is God's choice who will be saved and who will not, and individuals have no influence in the matter–they really do not choose for themselves at all. The people God chooses to be saved will be, no matter what they do. Likewise, the people God chooses not to be saved won't be, no matter what they do. Is this what you are saying, Elie?
Yes! That is exactly what I am saying. The bible states that God does not decide to choose a person because of his actions or how he lives his life. God choose a person to be saved, even before the foundation of the world. BUT the person that God decides to save, will live accordingly on what pleases God. Okay let's use the sheep and goat analogy that the bible also uses. The "sheeps" are God's chosen people to be saved, the "goats" are people that will not be saved. You will have an idea if that person is a "sheep" because he has "sheep-like" qualities: has a strong faith, God-fearing, God-loving, doesn't break laws, is loving to his neighbors…things like that. So you will also have an idea if that person is a "goat" when you see that he does not act like a "sheep". Am I making sense here? But God does not decide that a person is saved because that person "decided" on his own to be a sheep, instead he is saved because he IS a sheep. The goats will always be goats, they can't be a sheep and vice versa.
Am I saying that people with "goat-like" (criminals, murders, thiefs) qualities can never be saved? NO. Because only God knows whom He saves. We will never know, with 100% certainty, who are the sheeps and the goats are because only God knows the hearts of men. We can never judge who will be saved. As long as a person still lives, he still have the chance to show "sheep-like" qualities. Let's give Apostle Paul as an example for that.
I may very well end up finding out in heaven that I really have less choice in life than I think, but I believe the Bible allows for a different view.
No, no, no. We don't have any "less" choice. We have all the choices. You can always choose. It is the "will" of man that is limited therefore not free (e.g, you cannot "will" yourself to be saved), choices are free in terms of no one is hindering you to choose. Anyway, I hope we are making progress here with this very diffcult subject. lol.
I think the view that people are already predestined for either heaven or hell, no matter what they do, can lead to dangerous consequences–people not sharing the gospel message ('why bother when their fate's already decided'), feeling trapped in their sinful state ('God will never accept me'), feeling license to live ungodly lives ('God has already chose me anyway'), Jesus' sacrifice is meaningless ('God does the choosing so why did Jesus need to die?'), etc. I'm not saying these thought processes are right, but they can naturally progress from this view.
This is why I am saying that only God knows who will be saved and who will not be. People must always share the gospel message because it is how the "sheeps" are gathered. The goats will be uninterested and will not come. We ARE trapped in our sinful state, you have to accept that before you can move on. Our body / flesh is corruptible, we will always sin. But the bible promises that because Jesus died for the "sheep's" sins, they will still be saved because both their past and future sins are forgiven, that's how effective His sacrifice is. BUT this does not give us license to live ungodly lives because you surely are not a "sheep" if you act like a "goat". If you use Jesus' sacrifice to sin some more, you are not sheep, you are just a goat in sheep's clothing. Romans 6:1-4 also explains why we cannot live sinfully when we have faith in Jesus.
That's why, even if I find out later that I'm wrong, if the Bible can allow for the view that we do have some influence over our salvation (in that we can decide to choose God), I will stick with that view, and keep spreading the gospel, keep trying to live a life pleasing to God, and keep thinking that Jesus' sacrifice is meaningful because it shows God reaching out to save us.
Elie, I think you, like me, are trying to find a balance here, when you say, "People that were destined to love God WILL love God in the end, willingly and voluntarily." See? Like me, you also think that the choice to love God must come 'willingly and voluntarily.'
There is a balance, but God puts everything in balance without needing the cooperation of man. He doesn't need any help, afterall He is all-powerful. As I have said, we are free to choose that is why it is willing and voluntary, but what you choose is always in accordance to the will of God.
Roman 8:29, "For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son…"
It's just that I think you focus on the predestination part (a person responds to and chooses God because God decided ahead that this person will choose Him), and I focus on the foreknowledge part (God chooses the person He knows will respond to and choose Him).
Focusing on the "predestination" part is not wrong. It actually explain that God foreknows because He predestined. Here, please read this if you have time. ^_^ http://www.gotquestions.org/predestination-foreknowledge.html
I don't think this is the kind of argument that we need to get our claws out and fight over. ๐ It's just good to understand the different views and possibilities.
Yes, I could not even say that this is an argument. Let's just say it's more of a discussion. LOL. I am just glad that someone is open to my ideas. ^_^ Thank you for your cooperation with this, Genny.
You are very good at explaining your perspective, Elie. And I do see your point. We really are very similar. This conversation has been helpful to me in a few ways, including pinpointing what I really believe and how to express it. I am not expressing it very well, probably because I have not had to examine it so closely before. Thanks for making me do that. ๐
I was watching a movie the other night and one character said to another, "Did we decide to get off the bus, or did God make us get off the bus?" I do believe that God orchestrates and plans for things to happen in our lives and in history. But I see our focus here on salvation, not on life events.
Your gotquestions link helps a lot (even though I know it's possible for them to make a mistake, just like it is possible for me), but I'm going to have to study this some more because there is one thing that I still can't get over.
If God predestines some for salvation and others not, in the way you describe, it does give me an image of a programmed robot.
The one who is predestined for faith will choose faith, you say "willingly and voluntarily," but you see if God predestines them for faith, they don't really have a choice, so it may look willing and voluntary, but could they actually choose to reject God? Not if God has predestined them.
And the one who is predestined for no faith, do they really reject God by choice? No, they have no choice, because it's not really possible for them to have faith, because God has predestined them for no faith.
It's kind of like the programmable vacuum. If I program it to vacuum the house, it will and doesn't have a choice not to. If I don't program it, it won't and it can't make the choice to vacuum. So there really is no free choice if there is predestination in this way.
That is the part that I cannot reconcile because I don't believe God made us robots in this way. If He did, I think I'd rather not find out about it until I meet Him, because then I'm sure He be able to explain it to me perfectly.
I understand your dilemma, Genny. Even i had this problem when i first encountered this kind of thinking. The thing is, the more i think about it, the more i accepted it. The more i learned about it, the more my views changed. So i’ll also try to help you with this as much as i can.
You have stated: If God predestines some for salvation and others not, in the way you describe, it does give me an image of a programmed robot.ย
Is that situation so bad? You should not forget the part where the bible says no one is good, only God. Man’s heart is incurably wicked. Man will continue to do evil things unless God empowers them thru the Holy Spirit. The first step you must accept is that no man deserves to be in heaven. Because of our sinful nature, we were supposed to be sent to hell, that is why salvation is an unmerited favor from God. The next step to know is that God does not control or force man to sin. He is not the author of sin and should not be blamed for man’s wickedness. Man IS responsible for his actions. Because God is JUST (rewards the right and punishes the wrong), He needed to punish all sins committed by men and since the wages of sin is death, all men should have spent eternal damnation. BUT since God is MERCIFUL, God sent Jesus. God did not forget to punish, He just transferred the punishment to Jesus who was without sin. We were the ones who were supposed to be up there on the cross, not Him. This is true love. Can’t we just be happy with this? Why ask for more? We, who are nothing, were chosen and given the chance to enter heaven. Shouldn’t we just be grateful?
I will give you something to ponder about. I have already given this in previous comments but maybe you have missed it so allow me to repeat it again. Bible aside, let us say that God gave humans the free will to save themselves or not. He would not unconditionally chose the ones whom He will save but will base salvation on man’s good works. But since He is a perfect and holy God, He requires man to be holy also. Perfect obedience to the laws is needed. This is the only way that man can earn the right to be in heaven since God hates sin and does not condone evil acts. If this is the case, what do you think will happen in the end? Can anyone be saved?
/You are very good at explaining your perspective, Elie./
Thank you for your complement, I thank God for giving me the ability to do so. Before starting my comments, I always try to ask help from the Holy Spirit to give me wisdom before answering questions. I also try not to take credit for any good answers i come up with because all knowledge and wisdom came from God. If it is within His will, our minds will open up and we can understand things better.
Anyway I did not have a problem understanding you Genny. Your statements are clear and constructed in a way that is simple to comprehend. Again, thank you for your participation. God must really have great plans for you. ๐
Thank you for your compliments too. ๐ But I agree, anything good that comes out of me is through the grace of God, because by myself I am nothing.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
You should not forget the part where the bible says no one is good, only God. Man's heart is incurably wicked. Man will continue to do evil things unless God empowers them thru the Holy Spirit. The first step you must accept is that no man deserves to be in heaven. Because of our sinful nature, we were supposed to be sent to hell, that is why salvation is an unmerited favor from God. The next step to know is that God does not control or force man to sin. He is not the author of sin and should not be blamed for man's wickedness. Man IS responsible for his actions. Because God is JUST (rewards the right and punishes the wrong), He needed to punish all sins committed by men and since the wages of sin is death, all men should have spent eternal damnation. BUT since God is MERCIFUL, God sent Jesus. God did not forget to punish, He just transferred the punishment to Jesus who was without sin. We were the ones who were supposed to be up there on the cross, not Him. This is true love. Can't we just be happy with this? Why ask for more? We, who are nothing, were chosen and given the chance to enter heaven. Shouldn't we just be grateful?
I will give you something to ponder about. I have already given this in previous comments but maybe you have missed it so allow me to repeat it again. Bible aside, let us say that God gave humans the free will to save themselves or not. He would not unconditionally chose the ones whom He will save but will base salvation on man's good works. But since He is a perfect and holy God, He requires man to be holy also. Perfect obedience to the laws is needed. This is the only way that man can earn the right to be in heaven since God hates sin and does not condone evil acts. If this is the case, what do you think will happen in the end? Can anyone be saved?
No I didn't miss it. This is the part that has been clear to me the whole way (which is why I've been confused by the other parts that we didn't agree on). It is what I believe the Bible teaches, and I've explained this for years to anyone I have the privilege to talk to salvation about–except for the part in bold. That I explain the following way…
If God based our salvation on our good works, no one would be saved because no one can live a perfect life (even those chosen to be sheep, as you put it). We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). The payment for our sins is death, but God offers us the gift of eternal life through Jesus (Rom. 6:23). God is just, so the debt of sin must be paid, but He is also loving, so that's why Jesus paid that debt for us. The debt is paid already, and the gift of life is waiting for us. But in order to receive a gift you must accept it, take it, receive it, unwrap it… You don't have to receive the gift. You could pay that debt yourself, but why wouldn't you just accept it? (for most people who refuse it is pride or fear or feelings of unworthiness that holds them back) So, yes, in a way God does base salvation on our good works, which is why no one can be saved without faith in Jesus, which is why we say salvation is based on faith.
If God based our salvation on our good works, no one would be saved because no one can live a perfect life (even those chosen to be sheep, as you put it). We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). The payment for our sins is death, but God offers us the gift of eternal life through Jesus (Rom. 6:23). God is just, so the debt of sin must be paid, but He is also loving, so that's why Jesus paid that debt for us.
It is good that you have provided biblical support on your statements. But I notice that in the continuing ones below, no verses were provided. Can you find some?
You don't have to receive the gift. You could pay that debt yourself, but why wouldn't you just accept it? (for most people who refuse it is pride or fear or feelings of unworthiness that holds them back)
I think the statement "you could pay the debt yourself" is somehow false. If man have the capability to pay the debt, Jesus doesn't have to be sent, don't you agree? The payment does not only talks about physical death but also means complete separation from God. Paying the debt means you spend eternity in hell. I think no man can willingly go thru that kind of payment.
So, yes, in a way God does base salvation on our good works, which is why no one can be saved without faith in Jesus, which is why we say salvation is based on faith.
The faith you are talking about here is faith as a virtue. It is a different one from the faith we have previously talked about. If God does base salvation on our good works, does that mean that if we do not do good works, we won't be saved? I agree that our good works are necessary but it is only so that other people seeing it may glorify God. Matthew 5:16 states "Let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." It is connected with divine glorification, not man's salvation. Our good works is not needed by God, I think we can all agree that He does not need anything, not even the faulty love given by men.
You still maintain that some kind of participation from man is still needed to be saved. You still want man to receive some credit for his salvation. This contradicts bible teaching. Let me ask, so do you think that if God wills that I am to be saved and I decided to reject it, am I capable of resisting His grace?
Anyway, the view that man needs to cooperate first before he can be truly saved contradicts these verses: Romans 9:16 where it says that "It is not of him (man) who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man's will but by God's. John 6:37, "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out". And John 6:44 stated plainly by Jesus, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him." So where is man's participation in this? It is all God. Man can never take credit, if he can, then it won't be called "unmerited" anymore.
If God based our salvation on our good works, no one would be saved because no one can live a perfect life (even those chosen to be sheep, as you put it). We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). The payment for our sins is death, but God offers us the gift of eternal life through Jesus (Rom. 6:23). God is just, so the debt of sin must be paid, but He is also loving, so that's why Jesus paid that debt for us.
It is good that you have provided biblical support on your statements. But I notice that in the continuing ones below, no verses were provided. Can you find some?
You don't have to receive the gift. You could pay that debt yourself, but why wouldn't you just accept it? (for most people who refuse it is pride or fear or feelings of unworthiness that holds them back)
I think the statement "you could pay the debt yourself" is somehow false. If man have the capability to pay the debt, Jesus doesn't have to be sent, don't you agree? The payment does not only talks about physical death but also means complete separation from God. Paying the debt means you spend eternity in hell. I think no man can willingly go thru that kind of payment.
So, yes, in a way God does base salvation on our good works, which is why no one can be saved without faith in Jesus, which is why we say salvation is based on faith.
The faith you are talking about here is faith as a virtue. It is a different one from the faith we have previously talked about. If God does base salvation on our good works, does that mean that if we do not do good works, we won't be saved? I agree that our good works are necessary but it is only so that other people seeing it may glorify God. Matthew 5:16 states "Let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." It is connected with divine glorification, not man's salvation. Our good works is not needed by God, I think we can all agree that He does not need anything, not even the faulty love given by men.
You still maintain that some kind of participation from man is still needed to be saved. You still want man to receive some credit for his salvation. This contradicts bible teaching. Let me ask, so do you think that if God wills that I am to be saved and I decided to reject it, am I capable of resisting His grace?
Anyway, the view that man needs to cooperate first before he can be truly saved contradicts these verses: Romans 9:16 where it says that "It is not of him (man) who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man's will but by God's. John 6:37, "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out". And John 6:44 stated plainly by Jesus, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him." So where is man's participation in this? It is all God. Man can never take credit, if he can, then it won't be called "unmerited" anymore.
Interesting topic you have going here…. I am from a slightly different school of thought in this matter because it is unexplainable. I remember having a huge debate on this topic with my theology professor. This can be a very broad topic, in that, most christians from what i have seen hold both Calvinist and Arminian views. Unconditional Election (One of the five Calvinism points) is hard for me to accept. First, lets understand Unconditional Election (see link below). “By unconditional election Calvin meant that some are elected to Heaven, while others are elected to Hell, and that this election is unconditional. It is wholly on God’s part and without condition. By unconditional election Calvin meant that God has already decided who will be saved and who will be lost, and the individual has absolutely nothing to do with it. He can only hope that God has elected him for Heaven and not for Hell.”
So…, why, if I may ask is it necessary to choose Him, Jesus? Why go through all that if the elects have already been pre-chosen. That particular belief sounds more like wmscog to me, with of course the obvious added passover and female god. Having been a sacrificial lamb for man, Jesus, opened up a passage way to eternal life for anyone who will receive him. This doesn’t mean he has no idea who will, but that he has given us the “free will” to either choose to be with him or not. For me, it’s hard to accept that it has been predetermined (though God is all knowing), however, we still have that choice to make. John 3:16 – For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. The word that stands out to me the most here is “whoever” with one condition, which is “believe.” And the word believe in itself entails action and acceptance. A true believer will refrain from constant and intentional sin. Notwithstanding, 1 John 1:9 has made provision for repentance if we do sin. Having said that, I firmly understand and know, as I said earlier that God is all knowing. He knows those that will choose him, yet that choice due to his faithfulness is still up to man/woman to make. For this reason also, I believe that even though Jesus knew Judas would betray him, Judas still had that choice to make and was not forced to make it or this will mean there is really no free will and freedom of choice, and that will make God inconsistent. This will mean we are all walking spiritual zombies.
As for limited Atonement, the only group of beings, “I” believe he did not die for are the fallen angels (Satan and his cohorts), and the angels who are with him in heaven who did not rebel against him. I disagree with the thought that he only died for the elect. Elect to me entails those who will and have chosen him in their hearts. However, can be deceived in the end times, such as we are in now.
The same way there are different ranks in heaven, is the same way it will be when we finally go back to be with him at the end of time. Each according to his/her work on earth. I don’t believe, though God is all knowing, has assigned the rank to all at this point – just my thought.
Like I mentioned at the beginning of this post, this particular topic is very vast and at the end of the day, we really can’t say 100 percent the mind of God. We all know in part especially in this free will matter. Either way, I believe I am on the list and want to be on the list. I want a crown so got to get busy. Lol!
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/Calvinism/calvinism-hutson.htm
When I say I disagree that he only died for the elects in my third to last paragraph, I mean as the “unconditional election” point states for the Calvinist view. I don’t agree with all Calvinist view.
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