- Topic
This debate has been posted several times in other forum post. Do we really have free will or is it predetermined what we will do and say for our entire lives and we only think that we have free will? I read the Word of God like this: He knows everything you are going to do and every decision that you are going to make. Just because God knows what you are going to do and the decisions that you are going to make doesn't mean that you don't have free will. It states that he knows what you are going to do not that he predetermind that you are going to do. He knows the future and he knows the past. This is part of the character of God. If he was really causing you to do his will then all of us would be saved because that is the desire God has for us. This may be my only input on this but please continue to bring your questions in your pursuit of the truth.
Hmm… so it is in your opinion that people sin and God has no control over people sinning? I took it from this statement that you quoted: " it was up to them, rather than God, as to whether there was sin or not." So if this is the case, it is also up to the person whether he makes the effort to live a "holy" life and attain salvation? The main point being if he does good, he goes to heaven and if he does bad, he goes to hell?
Elie – how would you interpret Mt 25:31-46 ?
emil wrote:
Elie – how would you interpret Mt 25:31-46 ?
Ah yes, the famous "Sheep and Goat" analogy. “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In my personal opinion, the so-called "sheeps" will go to heaven and the so-called "goats" will go to hell.
He goes on to say that God allows us to get into bad things and situations out of love for us.
So what the author is trying to say is that God tolerates the bad things we do? Not sure if we are talking of the same God. lol.
As for attaining salvation we cannot earn that through holy living.
But what about 1 Peter 1:15-16 that states: "But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”? Though I do agree that we cannot attain salvation through our own efforts, I still think that only the people that has lived holy lives are able to be with God eternally in the end.
I totally agree that salvation is a gift that we don't deserve. It is by God's grace, through faith in Jesus that we can be saved. Jews back-off, this is for the gentiles. LOL.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
Ah yes, the famous "Sheep and Goat" analogy. “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In my personal opinion, the so-called "sheeps" will go to heaven and the so-called "goats" will go to hell.
That is not what I meant to ask. Who according to the passage are the "sheep" and the "goats"? What differentiates them?
Oh, well I guess the simple explanation here would be the sheep are God's elect, people that are meant to be saved even before the foundation of the world. They are the ones that are meant to follow God and WILL follow God. We could use John 10:27 for this also, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me". Or even Ephesians 1:3-5, "Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will"
So if there are people meant to be saved, there are also people that are destined to go to hell or we could say people that are meant to be used for evil or destruction. Like Pharaoh in Egypt, Romans 9:17, "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
So you see, everything has a purpose. EVERYTHING. It is in my opinion that it is wrong to say to people with problems that "God did not mean for that to happen to you." or some such false statements because the truth is God MEANT everything that happens in this world. For those who thinks it is injustice if this is the case then Romans 9:14-15 has an answer for that: "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So if you are asking about free will, I believe that it is not by man's effort that he becomes a "SHEEP", it depends on God if He planned to make you a sheep or a goat and you can't do anything about it. Therefore, man does not really have free will.
I see what you are saying. If our eternal destiny is predecided, then this is similar to the fatalism that exists in many eastern religions. It also means that God does not love everyone. It also implies that there was no need for Jesus to have a public ministry to teach us how to live. Why speak about the good samaritan? He had to shed his blood for those whom God had chosen to save. The rest of the people in this world don't have a purpose in life except to proceed towards eternal damnation.
I believe that God created all of us to be sheep. But he gave us a free will in order that we may choose to be either sheep or goats.
I don't mean to argue. Just trying to understand the predestination point of view.
The coming of Jesus was necessary because it is the only way that people can attain eternal life coz if our salvation depends on our actions then nobody would be able to enter heaven. According to the bible, the heart of man is completely inclined to do bad and they would always do bad (Romans 3:10, "As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one", Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and incurably sick; who can understand it?) UNLESS God empowers them to do good. Due to this, no one can be saved, it's like trying to run through a brick wall, but because of God's mercy, He put His son as a "door" or entrance so that we can enter the "other" room.
But here's the catch, you cannot enter it if you are a goat, only sheeps can enter. So if you are a true sheep, you are empowered by the Holy Spirit and you will be made holy in the eyes of God, that no matter what sin you have committed or will commit is already forgiven because of your faith in Jesus Christ. That's where unmerited grace comes from. It is a merit that you do not deserve yet God still gave it to you.
Yes, I guess this does mean that God does not love anyone, He only loves also those He predestined to be His followers. I couldn't imagine God loving Hitler, could you? If God loves everyone, then there wouldn't be this much suffering and pain and death in this world. He would save everyone and He doesn't need to create hell anymore and the last judgement doesn't have to exist anymore. I think the idea that "God loves everyone" came from people's own selfish desire and vain thinking. God doesn't have to conform to the decisions of His creation, we are the one the He conforms according to His will.
There was only one time in the Bible where humans have free will and it is found Genesis. Adam and Eve had "free will". At that time, man was still in a neutral position to do either good or bad. But as they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, their inclination turned towards evil and man became children of wrath.(Ephesians 2:3, "All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath."). This statement was, by the way, made by God's "sheep", that's why it is made in a past tense. It is here that "free will" ended, because man's very nature became sinful and man will ALWAYS follow his nature. Sure man can still choose but his "choices" will always be influenced by his evil nature.
You ever wonder why some people seems to have no conscience at all? To kill without even blinking? To tear a baby out of a mother's womb, toss it in the air and catch it with the tip of a sharpened pole while the mother watches from a distance? All of this are done by man. Sometimes I wonder why people consider it an insult to be told, "You're like a beast!" I think it is an insult for an animal to be a compared to humans. A beast wouldn't kill with pure evil intent. Only humans do that. Animals cannot think of ways on how to torture people.
But the Bible said in Ezekiel 35:26, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh." So God empowers us, gives us faith and by this faith through Jesus, we can still be saved. That's why whatever good you do, you cannot boast it to God or to other people, because it came from God, not from your own effort.
This is a Calvinistic view, only few held this belief. I am in favor of Calvinism. Most religions held an Arminianistic view. You can search it in the internet if you want. Calvinism vs. Arminian. lol.
emil wrote:
I believe that God created all of us to be sheep. But he gave us a free will in order that we may choose to be either sheep or goats.
I think this statement contradicts itself. God created ALL OF US to be sheep. If we are all sheep, then we are all sheep. How could you choose to be a goat when God created you as a sheep in the first place??? It's either you are a sheep or a goat. Unless you have some kind of power that is stronger than God to remake yourself into a "goat" when you are in fact a sheep. Is our will stronger than God's will?
The statement does not contradict itself unless you interpret sheep and goats in your way. God made us in his image and likeness. He also gave us free will to choose to accept him. Those who choose wisely are the sheep, those who don't are the goats.
According what you have said, it doesn't matter what I do during my lifetime. My final destiny has been decided even before my conception. If I am destined for hell, why has God made me? Why put any of us through our earthly existence at all? Why not just put us directly in heaven or hell?
It would not contradict if you didn't state that God created all of us to be sheep. In your use of the word ALL, that would leave no more room for options or alternative. So I guess you can just state that God created us with the "possibilities" of becoming either sheep or goat. But if that is the case, then your statement implies that God is not fully in control of what happens in this world and then we could say that His "sovereighnity" is limited. It is like saying that it is up to man whethe he saves himself or not, with God not being able to do anything about it because of this so-called "free will". But then, where would "grace" (unmerited favor) enter in that part? And what would be the purpose of coming of Jesus as our savior if WE could just have saved ourselves? And would that mean that the bible was wrong in stating Romans 8:29, "For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters"?
Yes, it does matter what you do during your lifetime because to know whether you are a "sheep" or a "goat" will be determined with your actions. What we do with our life will still be judged because we do it willingly and with our choices determining our actions. But the "sheeps" are already destined to act good and the goats are destined to act bad. Here is one biblical support on that, Romans 8:30, "And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory." This is pertaining to the "sheep". See the statement "having chosen them?" Everything is planned for the sheeps. Here's another one, Ephesians 2:10, "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR US TO DO."
About your other questions, Romans 9:21 can really answer that, "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"Anyway, one good indicator of being a "sheep" is when you care whether you go to hell or not. The "goats" tend not to care whether they go to heaven or hell after death but usually concentrate satisfying their worldly desires. Like wmscog leaders? lol.
Anyway, so why did God created the world and humans in the first place? The answer would be is that God created everything on earth for His glory. He created this wonderful world and created humans that can appreciate the things that He created and so that they would glorify Him. This is also biblically supported but I forgot the verse. I'll try to give it next time.
To be honest, I am not saying all of these to try to convince you of my beliefs. I have answered to the best of my abilities since you are showing some interest on this topic. So I hope I am making a point and that you found some stuff enlightening. ^_^
emil wrote:
The statement does not contradict itself unless you interpret sheep and goats in your way.
Interpret it in my way? So how do you interpret the "sheep"? A sheep is a sheep, do you ever see a sheep being a goat? It is not very logical to say that a "sheep" can choose to be a sheep or a goat, you have to choose a more valid argument. If all are sheep then there would be no way for them to be goats. There must first be a state of nothingness before a matter becomes something. Jeremiah 13:23 can be brought into this. "Can a leopard take away its spots? Neither can you start doing good, for you have always done evil."
Let's say you're a sheep. By your very nature, you would act like a sheep, think like a sheep, eat like a sheep. You actions will be controlled by WHAT you are. As a human with sinful nature, you will always sin as your soul is trap in a corruptible flesh. You will sin until you die. And the wages of sin is death, you should be sent to eternal damnation. There is no way around that. But that's where the word CHOSEN, UNCONDITIONAL, and GRACE comes from.
God has CHOSEN people before the foundation of the world to be His people that He will give eternal life. See Revelation 13:8, "They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life BEFORE the world was made–the Book that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered." There are people that are not chosen and not loved by God and will never be loved by Him, no matter what they do . See Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never loved you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"
God loves the chosen people UNCONDITIONALLY, which means that He did not base His love for them because of their actions or because they were "good" or "obedient" to His laws. And by His GRACE – an unmerited favor from Him (unmerited because we didn't do anything to deserve it) He saved them through Jesus Christ.
What Bible translation are you using? Not only are the words different, but the meaning has changed too. The first one doesn't matter so much, but the next two make a big difference.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
Jeremiah 13:23 can be brought into this. "Can a leopard take away its spots? Neither can you start doing good, for you have always done evil."
NIV Jer. 13:23, "…Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
See Revelation 13:8, "They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life BEFORE the world was made–the Book that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered."
NIV Rev. 13:8, "…all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the Lamb who was slain before the creation of the world."
There are people that are not chosen and not loved by God and will never be loved by Him, no matter what they do . See Matthew 7:21, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never loved you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!"
NIV Matt. 7:23, "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers.'"
You can see it here. http://bible.cc. They give different bible verses from different versions.
You can see on the "commentaries" below about the explanation.
The Rev.13:8 is from the CEB (Common English Bible). We can also use the BBE version, which says, "And all who are on the earth will give him worship, everyone whose name has not been from the first in the book of life of the Lamb who was put to death."
In Matthew 7:23, How would you interpret God saying "I never knew you?" Does that means literally mean that God does not "know" the person whom He created? That would be kinda weird right? Anyway, this site can explain further.
http://bible.cc/matthew/7-23.htm
Here is the copy paste of the explanation. It's kinda long so I just pasted a short version.
"I never knew you; which must be understood consistent with the omniscience of Christ; for as the omniscient God he knew their persons and their works, and that they were workers of iniquity; he knew what they had been doing all their days under the guise of religion; he knew the principles of all their actions, and the views they had in all they did; nothing is hid from him. But, as words of knowledge often carry in them the ideas of affection, and approbation, see Psalm 1:6 the meaning of Christ here is, I never had any love, or affection for you; I never esteemed you; I never made any account of you, as mine, as belonging to me…" This explanation is from John Gill, a theologian. Here's his bio if your interested. lol. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gill_(theologian)
Jeremiah 13:23 makes more of a difference if you read it in New King James.
Or here's Young's Literal Translation:
"…Ye also are able to do good, who are accustomed to do evil."
The sense is more that people's behavior is able to change, better than the leopard's spots.
Oh, here a brief explanation about it explained with the original use of the word "Knew".
Knew (1097) (ginosko) describes knowledge that one gains through direct personal involvement or experience. Here clearly Jesus uses ginosko not so much to describe His understanding but His relationship (actually lack of) with these evildoers. It is therefore not surprising that ginosko is sometimes used in the NT to describe intimate relationship, even speaking occasionally of marital intimacy between a man and woman (cf Bride and Bridegroom, Re 19:7, 8, 9 -see notes Re19:7; 8; 9). In other words a husband knowing his wife was a Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse (Mt 1:25).
Jesus is fully God, fully omniscient and thus He obviously knew their identity (their heart). What Jesus is saying in essence is
"I was never at any time acquainted with you (never had an experiential knowledge of or with you implying that you never experienced Me, never had fellowship or communion with Me.)"!
genny wrote:
Jeremiah 13:23 makes more of a difference if you read it in New King James.
Or here's Young's Literal Translation:
"…Ye also are able to do good, who are accustomed to do evil."
The sense is more that people's behavior is able to change, better than the leopard's spots.
It would make sense to you in that way because you have a different opinion in mind. You are still in a position that man has free will. This verse from Jeremiah is comparing the people from a leopard trying to "change" his spots to a man trying to stop doing evil. This is not a contrast, this is stating likeness. You have not understand correctly. The Young's Literal Translation bible if stated in another way to be better understood is that, "Man can only do good when the time comes that a leopard can change his spots at will WHICH is impossible to happen by the way."
I was going to say the same thing about the word "know". =) It is more of a personal sense than a general sense. But it still doesn't make sense that the translation would change the word to "love." That gives it a different sense entirely for me.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
It would make sense to you in that way because you have a different opinion in mind. You are still in a position that man has free will.
When we first started this conversation I thought you and I had the same view, but it became clear that we do differ on this point. No wonder I had been confused by some of your earlier comments. lol 🙂
This verse from Jeremiah is comparing the people from a leopard trying to "change" his spots to a man trying to stop doing evil. This is not a contrast, this is stating likeness. You have not understand correctly. The Young's Literal Translation bible if stated in another way to be better understood is that, "Man can only do good when the time comes that a leopard can change his spots at will WHICH is impossible to happen by the way."
But it is not impossible for everyone. Otherwise Paul would not have written Romans 6:17-19 , "But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. …
Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness."
or 1 Corinthians 6:8-11, "…Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
These views of whether or not we have free will (or how much of it is free) have been debated for centuries. I don't think we will come to agreement here, but it is always good to be able to understand each other even if we disagree. Here's how I would describe my concept of how free will fits in with the concept of being "chosen," as an analogy.
If I'm a coach at middle school here with 100 students, and I have to put together a sports team, and I have no limit of how many people can be on the team, how will I chose who to put on the team roster? Let's say I know ahead of time not just who would say yes to being asked, "Do you want to be on the team?" but also which of those who say yes would really mean it by actually participating in the games and practices and not just flake out. (Like God knows what will happen before it happens.) I put out the bulletin for the whole school, "Who wants to be on the team?" Each student has the free choice to come for try-outs, and whether to accept the request to join or drop out of the team or not. But I already knew beforehand who would be the ones who would say yes and mean it. They are the "chosen" but they had the free will to join.
Hope that makes sense.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.