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This debate has been posted several times in other forum post. Do we really have free will or is it predetermined what we will do and say for our entire lives and we only think that we have free will? I read the Word of God like this: He knows everything you are going to do and every decision that you are going to make. Just because God knows what you are going to do and the decisions that you are going to make doesn't mean that you don't have free will. It states that he knows what you are going to do not that he predetermind that you are going to do. He knows the future and he knows the past. This is part of the character of God. If he was really causing you to do his will then all of us would be saved because that is the desire God has for us. This may be my only input on this but please continue to bring your questions in your pursuit of the truth.
I would stay in WMSCOG if you were my family member to stay away from you
Elievalkyrie wrote:
Ofcourse, since man is still very responsible for his actions when he do sin so willingly. But do you get the point why there is no "free" will?
Yes, I understand. It's an intriguing thing to think about. How much control do I really have with my "free will" if God is in control of everything…
One thing I do believe is that God didn't make us to be robots. He does not force us to love Him, nor does He force us to sin.
Simon wrote:
I would stay in WMSCOG if you were my family member to stay away from you
LOL. So you'll choose a cult over an arrogant person? That's a kinda weird thinking. Tsk! Such low tolerance for criticism.
Well, I find you're "all-knowing" short answers arrogant too. So touche I guess. You find me arrogant, I find you arrogant, we are in perfect harmony. But instead of running back to wmscog, I'll fight you head on.
genny wrote:
Elievalkyrie wrote:
Ofcourse, since man is still very responsible for his actions when he do sin so willingly. But do you get the point why there is no "free" will?
Yes, I understand. It's an intriguing thing to think about. How much control do I really have with my "free will" if God is in control of everything…
One thing I do believe is that God didn't make us to be robots. He does not force us to love Him, nor does He force us to sin.
As I have said, there is no forcing. Forcing means there is a resistance from the "forced" party. ^___^
genny wrote:
Elievalkyrie wrote:
Ofcourse, since man is still very responsible for his actions when he do sin so willingly. But do you get the point why there is no "free" will?
Yes, I understand. It's an intriguing thing to think about. How much control do I really have with my "free will" if God is in control of everything…
One thing I do believe is that God didn't make us to be robots. He does not force us to love Him, nor does He force us to sin.
As I have said, there is no forcing. Forcing means there is a resistance from the "forced" party. ^___^ When you say "against" your will, you have to have something to be against about. Like when the Bible states God will give me a new heart, it was not my choice that He gives me a new heart but I am not against it so I was not forced.
When I said "forced" I didn't mean that there was resistance. I meant as in a robot is "forced" to do what it does because it does what is programmed by it's maker.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
As long as no one is forcing you to do anything, you will always be accoutable for what you do. If you did sinned willingly, you are already responsible. The mother and daughter example cannot be compared to what God do because in that example there is an actual forcing. It means there is resistance therefore the daughter don't really wanna do it, so the mother is held accountable. Whereas God doesn't "force" anyone, He doesn't have to. He would will it to happen and you do it willingly and with no remorse.
I guess a more accurate examples is between a writer (God) and his created "writings" (Humans). The writer decides what the characters in the book will do. If one character did something against the law, do they blame the author? And how could they say that they are being "forced" by someone outside their own little book-world? They were not held against their will. What they do, it came from their own actions, thus it held them accountable.
IMO, yes. If the author decided the character will break the law, the character had no other choice. No matter how hard the character wants to obey the law, the author has decided and put into play the law will be broken by that particular character. How is this free will? The only one with free will is the author in this example. It is very difficult for the character to prove that he/she cannot make his/her own decisions because the author has made them for him/her BUT that doesn't mean it's not happening. The author is controlling the character's actions with every word he/she writes. The character is being forced to be good or bad, to wear specific clothing, to look a certain way, to have certain abilities and disabilities. Yes, the character acted but it was because the author destined him/her to. It's like blaming a pen for spelling a word incorrectly. The ink came from the pen but it was the operator controlling it therefore, the operator is the one responsible for the mispelled word.
This idea that God has predestined our lives sounds like a way to cope with negative occurences* and to not take credit for the good things we have acheived.
In my opinion our Author of Life wrote two stories for each of us. One is joyful has a happy ending, the other has terrible consequences, If we do good as he has instructed us to do, we will make it to the kingdom of heaven. If we do bad like the ruler of this world, the lake of fire awaits us. So our free will is at play always, we chose which path we want to take everyday and every hour by the decisions we make.
The good thing about predestination (I would like to point out that it is different from "foreknowledge") is that God is good and He has made it so that all the things that happen in your life, both the good and the bad, no matter how big or small….results to good in the end and we have to trust Him on that.
Renita said: "To not take credit for the good things we have achieved." This is somewhat true because…Well, the bible did say: "For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him." (Philippians 2:13). So God is the one that gives you the desire to do good in the first place.
KF, if that is what happens, then God would not be in complete control of everything, wouldn't He? It would be like He is trying to conform to man's decision instead of the other way around. If He base our salvation on our own "free will" and good works, then how does He saved us through GRACE? Grace means "unmerited" favor from God, it means it was not because of something you did that God saved you, it was because of His own choice, not yours. (Ephesians 2:8). If you are still insisting that it is on our own free will and good works, then please give me biblical supports on this and I would consider it.
Elie – We are all sinners because we cannot live in perfect accordance with what God requires. Without God's mercy, His justice would condemn us all. Grace does mean unmerited favour from God. However, free will, while not responsible for our salvation, can be responsible for our eternal damnation. Not sure if my point is clear.
Simplistically, the way I see it is: We are sinners. God's justice requires that our sin is paid for. Jesus did that for us. Free will determines whether we believe and accept that saving grace or not.
Well going back to the question about we having free will or not. This is what I have come to the conclusion. I think we do have free will to an extent. I watched a video the other day about how the time and space is similar to a loaf of bread that depending how you cut it is how the time is for the different individuals in different parts of the Universe. I believe that God knows all the possible choices that we can make and their results and no matter which one we pick God already knows what is going to happen after. God knows which one we are going to pick too however thats when the free will comes into place because we can change our mind and choose to do something different. God gives the chance to people to repent, to change their mind that is the free will. Even in the garden of eden God knew everything that was going to happen however God asked Adam and Eve who ate from the tree. Even though he knew both did however that was their free will chance to repent to admit they commited a sin and to ask for forgiveness. by the way this is the link of the video I was watching if you are interested is very interesting! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO_Q_f1WgQI
So where does "grace" enter in that story?
Hmmm… okay so let me summarize what I believe in (this is all bible-based and I believe the bible does not contradict itself) and if you disagree, tell me why you don't agree and give me a biblical support on it.
God created the world out of nothing with His divine power. Agree?
He has a ultimate good purpose for everything He created. That's why we are all predestined for something. Agree?
God has chosen people He already picked that He loves even before the foundation of the world. Agree?
God created human beings with consciousness so His glory would be displayed to His creation. Agree?
God deliberately put the serpent in the garden *for whatever purpose only He knows*. Agree?
Adam and Eve sinned thus tainted all mankind thus making human nature sinful. Agree?
Man will always be responsible for his sinful actions and he cannot blame it on God. Agree?
Man in his own cannot come to God, he needs to have faith and it didn't come from himself but God gave it to him. Agree?
If left alone we cannot save ourselves because we are incapable of saving ourselves. That's the purpose of Jesus. Agree?
Since Jesus died for us, our salvation is now isn't based on our effort/good works but on our faith. Agree?
Our good works is only a manifestation of our faith. Agree?
All in all, those who have genuine faith are the only ones who will be given eternal life. Agree?
Did I miss something? This is all according to the Bible, if someone wants to dispute it please provide some biblical reference so we can look into it. Thanks! ^_^
jellybean wrote:
Well going back to the question about we having free will or not. This is what I have come to the conclusion. I think we do have free will to an extent. I watched a video the other day about how the time and space is similar to a loaf of bread that depending how you cut it is how the time is for the different individuals in different parts of the Universe. I believe that God knows all the possible choices that we can make and their results and no matter which one we pick God already knows what is going to happen after. God knows which one we are going to pick too however thats when the free will comes into place because we can change our mind and choose to do something different. God gives the chance to people to repent, to change their mind that is the free will. Even in the garden of eden God knew everything that was going to happen however God asked Adam and Eve who ate from the tree. Even though he knew both did however that was their free will chance to repent to admit they commited a sin and to ask for forgiveness. by the way this is the link of the video I was watching if you are interested is very interesting! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO_Q_f1WgQI
So everything still depends on man's will and not what God wills? So when does the world ends with this kind of life? Life is so full of choices that the world may end billion years later just waiting for everything to click in place due to man's choices. So God is just like an overseer, not the author of this story? So there wouldn't really be a predestination but instead only a foreknowledge of God.
No, what I said is that the way I see it is that God knows all the possible choices and all the consequences no matter what you choose God knows what will come upon that action. In the video I share you can see what I mean. The free will comes in to place at the moment you choose to act for good or for evil. When you decide to lie or to say the truth. Many people are given the choice to repent and they do not do it even on of the disciples was told that he was going to deny Christ three times. He knew that situation was going to come upon him if he would not deny Christ he would be killed and would not be able to preach and serve as a future witness…these two results were known by God including his heart and what he would tend to choose according with the fear this disciple was feeling on this situation. That’s how I see the free will. I might be wrong however that’s how I understand it is. I also consider that God know me so much and let’s me know that sometimes. God is the creator and God knows his creatures too much. God knows us more than what we know ourselves.
KF wrote:
In my opinion our Author of Life wrote two stories for each of us. One is joyful has a happy ending, the other has terrible consequences, If we do good as he has instructed us to do, we will make it to the kingdom of heaven. If we do bad like the ruler of this world, the lake of fire awaits us. So our free will is at play always, we chose which path we want to take everyday and every hour by the decisions we make.
Like the Goose Bumps books
Elievalkyrie wrote:
So where does "grace" enter in that story?
Hmmm… okay so let me summarize what I believe in (this is all bible-based and I believe the bible does not contradict itself) and if you disagree, tell me why you don't agree and give me a biblical support on it.
God created the world out of nothing with His divine power. Agree?
He has a ultimate good purpose for everything He created. That's why we are all predestined for something. Agree?
God has chosen people He already picked that He loves even before the foundation of the world. Agree?
God created human beings with consciousness so His glory would be displayed to His creation. Agree?
God deliberately put the serpent in the garden *for whatever purpose only He knows*. Agree?
Adam and Eve sinned thus tainted all mankind thus making human nature sinful. Agree?
Man will always be responsible for his sinful actions and he cannot blame it on God. Agree?
Man in his own cannot come to God, he needs to have faith and it didn't come from himself but God gave it to him. Agree?
If left alone we cannot save ourselves because we are incapable of saving ourselves. That's the purpose of Jesus. Agree?
Since Jesus died for us, our salvation is now isn't based on our effort/good works but on our faith. Agree?
Our good works is only a manifestation of our faith. Agree?
All in all, those who have genuine faith are the only ones who will be given eternal life. Agree?
Did I miss something? This is all according to the Bible, if someone wants to dispute it please provide some biblical reference so we can look into it. Thanks! ^_^
Disagree, disagree. I only disagree with these because they somewhat contridict each other and I think would lead to another topic entirely. If I'm responsible for my sins, then why am I being held responsible for someone else's sin as well? Either I'm responsible for my sin or we all share the responsobility of sin somehow.. which doesn't seem fair at all.
jellybean wrote:
No, what I said is that the way I see it is that God knows all the possible choices and all the consequences no matter what you choose God knows what will come upon that action. In the video I share you can see what I mean. The free will comes in to place at the moment you choose to act for good or for evil. When you decide to lie or to say the truth. Many people are given the choice to repent and they do not do it even on of the disciples was told that he was going to deny Christ three times. He knew that situation was going to come upon him if he would not deny Christ he would be killed and would not be able to preach and serve as a future witness…these two results were known by God including his heart and what he would tend to choose according with the fear this disciple was feeling on this situation. That's how I see the free will. I might be wrong however that's how I understand it is. I also consider that God know me so much and let's me know that sometimes. God is the creator and God knows his creatures too much. God knows us more than what we know ourselves.
You are free to choose but you are not in a neutral position. The heart of a man is sinful and his choices will always lean towards evil. The bible said so. You are not in the position of Zero where you can choose between positive and negative. You are already a negative and whatever good you do does not come from yourself but it came from God. If God leaves you alone, you will continue to the path of destruction because that is man's nature after the fall. We are all wicked. But God empowers you, gives you a new heart that you may be born again and be holy. That is the message of the bible. Ofcourse God knows us more than ourselves because He did create us. He is the writer and we are the characters.
renita.payno wrote:
KF wrote:
In my opinion our Author of Life wrote two stories for each of us. One is joyful has a happy ending, the other has terrible consequences, If we do good as he has instructed us to do, we will make it to the kingdom of heaven. If we do bad like the ruler of this world, the lake of fire awaits us. So our free will is at play always, we chose which path we want to take everyday and every hour by the decisions we make.
Like the Goose Bumps books
Elievalkyrie wrote:
So where does "grace" enter in that story?
Hmmm… okay so let me summarize what I believe in (this is all bible-based and I believe the bible does not contradict itself) and if you disagree, tell me why you don't agree and give me a biblical support on it.
God created the world out of nothing with His divine power. Agree?
He has a ultimate good purpose for everything He created. That's why we are all predestined for something. Agree?
God has chosen people He already picked that He loves even before the foundation of the world. Agree?
God created human beings with consciousness so His glory would be displayed to His creation. Agree?
God deliberately put the serpent in the garden *for whatever purpose only He knows*. Agree?
Adam and Eve sinned thus tainted all mankind thus making human nature sinful. Agree?
Man will always be responsible for his sinful actions and he cannot blame it on God. Agree?
Man in his own cannot come to God, he needs to have faith and it didn't come from himself but God gave it to him. Agree?
If left alone we cannot save ourselves because we are incapable of saving ourselves. That's the purpose of Jesus. Agree?
Since Jesus died for us, our salvation is now isn't based on our effort/good works but on our faith. Agree?
Our good works is only a manifestation of our faith. Agree?
All in all, those who have genuine faith are the only ones who will be given eternal life. Agree?
Did I miss something? This is all according to the Bible, if someone wants to dispute it please provide some biblical reference so we can look into it. Thanks! ^_^
Disagree, disagree. I only disagree with these because they somewhat contridict each other and I think would lead to another topic entirely. If I'm responsible for my sins, then why am I being held responsible for someone else's sin as well? Either I'm responsible for my sin or we all share the responsobility of sin somehow.. which doesn't seem fair at all.
In what way do it contradict each other? Can you point that out? When you said you are being held responsible for someone else's sin, what were you talking about? Was it Adam and Eve? The bible did say that through one man sin entered the world. It's like when you put a drop of poison in a container of water, all of it will be considered to be poisoned. Or you can say that because Adam and Eve removed that one itty bitty stone, the dam broke and affected all the people in the river.
The forbiden tree of the Garden is the tree of Good and Evil. Therefore all bad or good comes from our heart. I am not a religious person that goes to church every week. However there is a chance every day for us to do good or not. Is up to us the path we want to take and the consequences with it. We are not babies we are adults who can discern the good and the bad so if you did something bad you know it for sure if you do the good you feel joy and happiness. I am not saying that God has nothing to do with that. God Does because God created us with the Good and the Evil inside. In other words i dont believe like the Church Of God teaches that nothing Good comes from us. I really dont agree with that because we are capable of doing both. Wether you are religious or not you surelly know when somthing is wrong or Bias.
Sin did not enter the world through Adam and Eve. God placed it there when He created the serpent.
The WMSCOG teaches that there were 2 instructions God gave Adam and Eve: To be fruitful and not to eat from the TOK. They broke the 2nd "law" and were punished which is fair. But Satan was also punished for tempting them. If there is no law against tempting then you can't be punished for it. So the WMSOG is faulty in that sense. I brought this up because the verse where it says sin entered the world through one man doesn't make sense. Satan was punished. God only punishes those who sin. So Satan sinned and was punished. Satan sinned before the man did. This is how it appears to me.
Let me rephrase your statement. "Adam and Eve sinned therefore we become sinful beings." The only reason we suffer from sin is not because God made us sinful, but because Adam and Eve sinned. It's not my fault I sin, it's Adam and Eve's fault. I'm suffering birth pains because Eve sinned.
renita.payno wrote:
Sin did not enter the world through Adam and Eve. God placed it there when He created the serpent.
The WMSCOG teaches that there were 2 instructions God gave Adam and Eve: To be fruitful and not to eat from the TOK. They broke the 2nd "law" and were punished which is fair. But Satan was also punished for tempting them. If there is no law against tempting then you can't be punished for it. So the WMSOG is faulty in that sense. I brought this up because the verse where it says sin entered the world through one man doesn't make sense. Satan was punished. God only punishes those who sin. So Satan sinned and was punished. Satan sinned before the man did. This is how it appears to me.
Let me rephrase your statement. "Adam and Eve sinned therefore we become sinful beings." The only reason we suffer from sin is not because God made us sinful, but because Adam and Eve sinned. It's not my fault I sin, it's Adam and Eve's fault. I'm suffering birth pains because Eve sinned.
So you're saying that Romans 5:12 (Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–) is not true? As I have said, if what you believe in doesn't conform to what the bible say, then you should change your belief, not the bible. Or don't believe in the bible at all. We can't just handpick everything we want and discard the rest, this is what the wmscog do but even other religions are guilty of doing it.
You are an offspring of a sinner which make you, by nature a sinner and you will sin voluntary which still makes you responsible for your sin. A little poison was dropped and the whole water was contaminated, not one drop is left pure. Satan was still punished because he deceived Adam and Eve, he did that on purpose which caused them to sin so he still have something to do with it. Papa punished me for riding a bike, well brother told me to ride the bike, would Papa not punish my brother? But we humans are punish so that we learn but Satan never learns. God just don't destroy him yet because, as you agreed, He has a purpose for everything.
He has a purpose for creating us (which I already know), for creating a serpent to deceive, a purpose for allowing sin to enter the world, for creating commandments that increase sin, for sending someone to save us, a purpose for ALL OF THIS and He is in complete control. But even as we know that, we still trust that whatever happens, good will still prevail in the end because God is good and THAT is true faith.
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