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This debate has been posted several times in other forum post. Do we really have free will or is it predetermined what we will do and say for our entire lives and we only think that we have free will? I read the Word of God like this: He knows everything you are going to do and every decision that you are going to make. Just because God knows what you are going to do and the decisions that you are going to make doesn't mean that you don't have free will. It states that he knows what you are going to do not that he predetermind that you are going to do. He knows the future and he knows the past. This is part of the character of God. If he was really causing you to do his will then all of us would be saved because that is the desire God has for us. This may be my only input on this but please continue to bring your questions in your pursuit of the truth.
^That is my belief too. I believe everyone can be saved. But God will not forcibly save anyone. He has offered salvation. His love is manifested in the free will he has given us. Yet, being omniscient, he knows what we will end up doing.
I just read an interesting article about whether we have free will in our salvation. Thought I'd pass it along:
http://reknew.org/2012/09/qa-if-salvation-depends-on-our-free-choice-how-are-we-saved-by-grace/
First of all, I advice the non-Christians that wants to comment on this to refrain from making derogatory statements about Jesus. (Yes, Hal. I am talking about you. LOL. peace!)
Okay… This is going to be a long one. *Cracking knuckles*
I guess I could divide this in 5 topics.
Point 1. Do you believe man's inability "on his own" to come to God? If not, then you wouldn't believe this verses in the Bible.
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (Jn. 6:44), “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.” (Jn. 8:43), “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.” (Jn. 12:39-40). As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. (Rom 3:10-11). And this are just a few examples.
Point 2. Do you believe that God unconditionally elected certain people to be saved and that He also already chose whom NOT to save? This is just one exmple: He has chosen people (Israelites) that He loves but ofcourse there are chosen "gentiles" too. If you don't accept this, then you won't believe this verses in the Bible.
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight (Ephesians 1:4). You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you… (John 15:16a). Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden (Romans 9:18). And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness (2 Thess 2:11). ‘A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.’ They stumble because they disobey the message – which is also what they were destined for (1 Peter 2:8).
If you accept this verses, you might react: "This is unfair!" But remember, no one is worth saving in the first place, so if you're one of the chosen, you'd better be darn grateful. Let's say for example God will say: "Okay, I will not choose whom to save, I will base whom to save based on their own 'effort'. But since I am a holy God, I require that my people will be holy also. In order for them to be considered holy, I require that they follow all the 10 Commandments all their life, those who can do this will have the 'right' to be with me in heaven." So… if this is the case, do you think anyone will be save? I think not! Give me one person who didn't sin ALL his life, maybe you know someone then you can argue with me on this.
Point 3: (For the Christians only) Do you believe that the death of Jesus was only for God's elected people? So this would be a limited atonement, as you can see in point 2, those that are saved are already chosen so this signifies a limit.
"Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:28). Notice the word "MANY". I would agree that many would be save but not ALL. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (The very famous John 3:16). See the term "world"? This is universal but then read "whoever believes", this is the limitation. So that means not all will be save. Anyway, if all will be saved, what's the point of Hell in the first place.
Point 4: Do you believe that ALL the people God "predestined" to save will eventually believe in God (Who could resist God's will? No one). These verses could support it.
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me” (John 6:37). <sup class=”versenum” style=”font-size: 0.75em; font-weight: bold; vertical-align: top; font-family: ‘Charis SIL’, charis, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”> "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:30).
In other words, it’s a done deal; there is no uncertainty about it. If God has chosen you, then He will see to it that you will receive Him. That's why you cannot claim the faith in believing as "yours", that would be plain boastful. God gave it to you. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. (Ephesians 2:8)
Point 5: Do you believe in eternal security? It means that Jesus' death was sufficient to save all his chosen people. It was so effective, that your past and future sins are already forgiven so that you can enter His kingdom.
"Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God's wrath." (Romans 5:9). This DOES NOT mean that we can now rejoice and continue sinning. Its the exact opposite. This is a lengthy explanation but you can read Romans 6 to understand. The "saved" people will be sanctified but it is a process, not a instant thing.
So if you don't believe this, then by all means worry and strive hard to do "good" to be save. I would just like to point out that the bible states that the "good works" must come from faith. If you are just doing good works just to earn salvation then that would be, in a way, only self-love.
WHAT IS MY POINT IN ALL OF THIS??? Well, this is just so I can say that "there is no FREE will." All of us are predestined to be like this, if our will was "free", then we could change the things that God predestined for us, which would in turn imply that God's will is weaker than ours. So in conclusion, we have a will but it is limited or bounded, therefore, it is NOT free. I am not saying God is forcing us to do something. Oh no. God never forces. He doesn't HAVE TO.
genny wrote:
I just read an interesting article about whether we have free will in our salvation. Thought I'd pass it along:
http://reknew.org/2012/09/qa-if-salvation-depends-on-our-free-choice-how-are-we-saved-by-grace/
Oh, this is a good one Genny. It states a much clearer picture compared to what I wrote.
genny wrote:
I just read an interesting article about whether we have free will in our salvation. Thought I'd pass it along:
http://reknew.org/2012/09/qa-if-salvation-depends-on-our-free-choice-how-are-we-saved-by-grace/
Oh, this is a good one Genny. It states a much clearer picture compared to what I wrote.
I think it’s a mix of will and predestiny I think people can fall away the bible says people have and warns about it
It's not a warning, it's actually a statement. Like Peter, Jesus told him that he will deny Him. If Peter had a "free" will, then he could have change the future when he heard this "warning" and tried hard in NOT denying Jesus. Also Pharaoh VS. Moses, you can see that Pharaoh kept changing his mind of letting the Israelites go because God "hardened" his heart. God was fully in control of the event. You could accept this because it was stated in a narrative way and you are not directly affected but once applied to ourselves, many would deny that God was fully in control. Just like Pharaoh, he wasn't even aware of it, he thought it was his decision. It was true for him and it is true for ALL of US.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
genny wrote:
I just read an interesting article about whether we have free will in our salvation. Thought I'd pass it along:
http://reknew.org/2012/09/qa-if-salvation-depends-on-our-free-choice-how-are-we-saved-by-grace/
Oh, this is a good one Genny. It states a much clearer picture compared to what I wrote.
Opps, I was wrong. This was from a Arminian. They believe that every people will be saved. We don't have the same belief.. ^_^
Elievalkyrie wrote:
genny wrote:
I just read an interesting article about whether we have free will in our salvation. Thought I'd pass it along:
http://reknew.org/2012/09/qa-if-salvation-depends-on-our-free-choice-how-are-we-saved-by-grace/
Oh, this is a good one Genny. It states a much clearer picture compared to what I wrote.
Opps, I was wrong. This was from a Arminian. They believe that every people will be saved. We don't have the same belief.. ^_^
God hardened pharaohs heart but ultimately that’s very different Demas was saved then fell away we are warned not to fall away as though we have say
Yes, "as though". Please tell me why God's hardening pharaoh's heart is different? What made it different?
Elievalkyrie wrote:
Elievalkyrie wrote:
genny wrote:
I just read an interesting article about whether we have free will in our salvation. Thought I'd pass it along:
http://reknew.org/2012/09/qa-if-salvation-depends-on-our-free-choice-how-are-we-saved-by-grace/
Oh, this is a good one Genny. It states a much clearer picture compared to what I wrote.
Opps, I was wrong. This was from a Arminian. They believe that every people will be saved. We don't have the same belief.. ^_^
I had to look twice too. The one asking the question is Arminian, but the one answering does not believe that all people will be saved.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
Yes, "as though".
so God lied ok
Simon wrote:
Elievalkyrie wrote:
Yes, "as though".
so God lied ok
I don't know if I just misunderstood your sentence but if you just keep your comments "CLEARER", using correct comma and period placement, we won't be having a problem understanding each other. Your comments are always short, vague and constructed in a way that's hard to understand. Don't know if its tardiness on your part but I won't waste my time trying to understand your point when you don't make an effort for it.
genny wrote:
Elievalkyrie wrote:
Elievalkyrie wrote:
genny wrote:
I just read an interesting article about whether we have free will in our salvation. Thought I'd pass it along:
http://reknew.org/2012/09/qa-if-salvation-depends-on-our-free-choice-how-are-we-saved-by-grace/
Oh, this is a good one Genny. It states a much clearer picture compared to what I wrote.
Opps, I was wrong. This was from a Arminian. They believe that every people will be saved. We don't have the same belief.. ^_^
I had to look twice too. The one asking the question is Arminian, but the one answering does not believe that all people will be saved.
LOL. So tell me what you think of their ideas?
Elievalkyrie wrote:
LOL. So tell me what you think of their ideas?
I liked the author's points. Especially the analogy and this summary, "But the Holy Spirit will not work coercively, for coerced love is not genuine love…. The Holy Spirit will bring us to the point where we can believe, but never to a point where we must believe. So, if we do believe, it is all credited to God’s grace, working through the Spirit. If we refuse, however, it’s our own fault."
Ofcourse, since man is still very responsible for his actions when he do sin so willingly. But do you get the point why there is no "free" will?
Here's the dilema.. When we sin we are responsible for our sin. Because God is a just God and wouldn't punish us for something He made us do, this must mean we have free will. But everything we do is predestined. God has already planned for us to stumble as it says in the Scripture making it look as though we don't have free will. The things we do are not our own choices but God's choice. If this is true, then God is responsible for our sin. But then I've also heard that we sin because we are influenced by Satan so he is responsible for our sin but that still tells us we don't have free will.
Let's say my daughter has absolute free will and makes her own decisions. There are times I can "take" her free will away from her. I can grab her foot and make it kick someone or grab her hand and make it knock something over. But the moment I let go, I have "returned" her free will to her. Is this what God and Satan do?
As long as no one is forcing you to do anything, you will always be accoutable for what you do. If you did sinned willingly, you are already responsible. The mother and daughter example cannot be compared to what God do because in that example there is an actual forcing. It means there is resistance therefore the daughter don't really wanna do it, so the mother is held accountable. Whereas God doesn't "force" anyone, He doesn't have to. He would will it to happen and you do it willingly and with no remorse.
I guess a more accurate examples is between a writer (God) and his created "writings" (Humans). The writer decides what the characters in the book will do. If one character did something against the law, do they blame the author? And how could they say that they are being "forced" by someone outside their own little book-world? They were not held against their will. What they do, it came from their own actions, thus it held them accountable.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
Simon wrote:
Elievalkyrie wrote:
Yes, "as though".
so God lied ok
I don't know if I just misunderstood your sentence but if you just keep your comments "CLEARER", using correct comma and period placement, we won't be having a problem understanding each other. Your comments are always short, vague and constructed in a way that's hard to understand. Don't know if its tardiness on your part but I won't waste my time trying to understand your point when you don't make an effort for it.
You are quite an arrogant person
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