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Home Forums General Former WMSCOG Missionary Ron Ramos Speaks Out About His Experience

This topic contains 260 replies, has 37 voices, and was last updated by  Simon 6 years, 5 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 151 through 165 (of 261 total)
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  • #52026

    genny
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    Genny wrote; But you've answered that question–The wmscog teaches that God approves of abortion.

    Don't start puting words in my mouth Genny and start spreading lies construed by your own thoughts AGAIN like you do in this website!  We don't oppose it just as the bible does not.  Doesn't mean we approve.  Two different things.  

    So I think the reason why it doesn't talk about abortion is because children ar the property of the parents, and they have all rights.  And genny I hope you don't try to LIE again and say this is wmscog teaching because this is my own beliefs that I came up with.  okay lets try to have an honest character. 

    Lies?  No!  Misunderstanding?  Maybe.  If so, then set me straight.  Maybe you just don't like seeing your meaning expressed in a direct way?

    Active listening skills include rephrasing what you think you heard so that the speaker can tell you if you misunderstood.  That's what I do.

    You say there is a difference between not opposing (letting someone choose) and approving.  No, not really.  If I set two bowls in front of my child for dinner, one with soup and one with ice cream, and say "You can choose which one you want.  I'm not opposed to you having ice cream for dinner tonight."  That has the same meaning as saying "I approve if you choose soup, and I also approve if you choose ice cream."

    From the information you gave, I concluded, "The wmscog teaches that God approves of abortion."

    You say that is a lie?  Then is the correct statement, "The wmscog teaches that God does not approve of abortion"?

    Or since you now say you are speaking of your own beliefs and not wmscog teaching, maybe this a summary should be this, "I don't know what the wmscog teaches, but I believe God approves of abortion"?  If that's the better statement, then why don't you know what the wmscog teaches about this?  Why don't you find out?

    #52025

    Love'n Honey
    Member

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    elie said, "the bible doesnt condone killing of those properties". so this is why it is wrong r u saying? well your taking my argument that because the bible does not go against it and your just flipping it around so if you think my argument does not hold up then yours doesnt either. The goal of discussing this topic is not about feelings its about or it should be about as should all topics be about is it a sin does it effect us going to heaven which is the goal of our faith the salvation of our souls (qouted from the bible). so u think it better to lie nn say the bible is against it??? when that is not provable??? Also it IS the choice of a women! She has every right to abort or to keep it. A major decision in person life should not be "discouraged" influenced because of your personal beliefs id like to point out there r millions of women who dont hold ure views!

    emil So even though, according to your thoughts, god is against "murdering" as you put it its okay to to make abraham believe its okay to do it just to test him? because abraham is thinking its okay to murder his son because god wants it, isnt that misleading wouldnt u say its almost a lie then according to your interpretation of the event emil??? oh so insince god stopped him its okay?? so what happened to you guys oppossing "the end does not justify" your arguments r starting to become hypocritical of how u guys dispute the church of god.

     I had a huge problem with God's laws and what God orders us to do. I questioned my Missionary about the law "Thou shalt not murder". However, God has sent numerous people to kill others without following the rules in Dt. If someone disobeyed God's laws or cheated or murdered someone then they would be put to death. All the rules say after someone has done something bad, they shall be put to death. I haven't seen a rule that says when someone is/n't about to do something wrong, they can be put to death. Isaac hadn't done anything and wasn't going to do anything worthy of death and yet God ordered Abram to kill him. If Abram had questioned God, he would be wrong. But if he would've killed Isaac, he would have been wrong which is why I think God stopped him.

    #52024

    Love'n Honey
    Member

    Elievalkyrie wrote:

    The Secret of the Forgiveness of Sins? I didn't know God have some kind of a secret just to forgive sins, that really sounds weird.

    Giving forgiveness wasn't the secret. The secret was why we needed his forgiveness. Why did God have to pay such a big price for our sin. The "secret" was that we attempted to overthrow God in heaven which is why we are on earth. It's like being bailed out of jail but not knowing why you were in jail in the 1st place. That study revealed why we were in jail to begin with.

    #52023

    elie said, “the bible doesnt condone killing of those properties”. so this is why it is wrong r u saying? well your taking my argument that because the bible does not go against it and your just flipping it around so if you think my argument does not hold up then yours doesnt either. The goal of discussing this topic is not about feelings its about or it should be about as should all topics be about is it a sin does it effect us going to heaven which is the goal of our faith the salvation of our souls (qouted from the bible). so u think it better to lie nn say the bible is against it??? when that is not provable??? Also it IS the choice of a women! She has every right to abort or to keep it. A major decision in person life should not be “discouraged” influenced because of your personal beliefs id like to point out there r millions of women who dont hold ure views!

    emil So even though, according to your thoughts, god is against “murdering” as you put it its okay to to make abraham believe its okay to do it just to test him? because abraham is thinking its okay to murder his son because god wants it, isnt that misleading wouldnt u say its almost a lie then according to your interpretation of the event emil??? oh so insince god stopped him its okay?? so what happened to you guys oppossing “the end does not justify” your arguments r starting to become hypocritical of how u guys dispute the church of god.

    #52022

    emil
    Member

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    You can find that abortions were a common thing even in those days! Yet the bible strangly does not comment on the matter.  Also you can argue than did God want Abraham to commit MURDER, when he ask for him to slay and offer his own son as a sacrifice? God said he wanted to test Abraham, and when Abraham was going to go through with it he was even rewarded more greatly for his obedience.  

    Can you back up your statement which I have highlighted?

    God may have ordered Abraham to slay his son Isaac to test him but God did stop him from the murder eventually. So it is quite clear it was a test of faith. It is a bad example.

    You could perhaps have offered examples of times when God actually commanded killing and went through with it but it was in the context of war.

    #52021

    Elievalkyrie
    Member

    The bible doesn't condone to KILLIING of these so-called "properties" FTOS. And that's what you do when you do abortion. You kill an innocent life or you could even say soon-to-be life whom God have created. Even though the bible doesn't exactly state that you shouldn't ABORT, the fact that after the deed, most of the parents are guilt-ridden. Their conscience bothers them and most confess to having a difficult time sleeping just thinking about it. Losing a child accidentally makes a parent feel awful, but losing a child deliberately, how do you think that would feel?

    Your answers really does confirm what Ron Ramos said about wmscog. It's not what you say, it's what you DON'T say. If a member wanted to go through abortion, you stay silent. You wash your hands of it, just like what Pontius Pilate did. You could have said something to discourage them from doing it but you do nothing and your silence or even when you say "That's your choice" eventually encourage that member to do it because she trusted you, you and your pastors and Zhang, that what she is doing is right and all the while feeling guilty because of it. Sometimes, you don't have to READ the bible to know what's right or not, you should try to listen sometimes to what your conscience tells you.

    #52020

    Genny wrote; But you've answered that question–<em style=”margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: ‘Trebuchet MS’, ‘Lucida Grande’, Verdana, Tahoma, Arial; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);”>The wmscog teaches that God approves of abortion.

    Don't start puting words in my mouth Genny and start spreading lies construed by your own thoughts AGAIN like you do in this website!  We don't oppose it just as the bible does not.  Doesn't mean we approve.  Two different things.  You can find that abortions were a common thing even in those days! Yet the bible strangly does not comment on the matter.  Also you can argue than did God want Abraham to commit MURDER, when he ask for him to slay and offer his own son as a sacrifice? God said he wanted to test Abraham, and when Abraham was going to go through with it he was even rewarded more greatly for his obedience.  But did God say I will reward Isaach for be obedient and not saying a word when his father was about to murder him.   You can come to a conclusion that in the bible children are considered even property of parents. 

    Even suduction of a virgin is like theft to the parents. 

     

    If a man seduces a virgin for whom the bride-price  has not been 

    paid, and lies with her, he must make her his wife by payment of a 

    bride-price. If her father refuses to give her to him, he must still 

    weigh out silver in accordance with the bride-price for virgins (Ex. 

    22:15-16).  

     

    Likewise, the rape of a virgin is considered an economic loss to her father not to the virgin herself.

     

    If a man comes upon a virgin who is not engaged and he seizes her 

    and lies with her, and they are discovered, the man who lay with 

    her shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be 

    his wife (Deut. 22:28-29).

    So I think the reason why it doesn't talk about abortion is because children ar the property of the parents, and they have all rights.  And genny I hope you don't try to LIE again and say this is wmscog teaching because this is my own beliefs that I came up with.  okay lets try to have an honest character. 

    #52019

    genny
    Participant

    Thanks Elie.  I had that verse in mind, and there are also these: Job 31:15; Psalm 51:6; Ecc. 11:5; Isaiah 44:2&24; Isaiah 49:1-5; Jeremiah 1:5; Jeremiah 20:17; Hosea 12:3; Luke 1:41-44

    #52018

    Elievalkyrie
    Member

    genny wrote:

    The Bible doesn't speak against it?  It doesn't use the word "abortion" but it definitely speaks about murder, and about babies in the womb. 

     

    Let me give the bible verse for your statement Genny ^__^ 

    This is from Psalms 139:13-16 “For You formed my inward parts…You covered me in my mother’s womb… for I am fearfully and wonderfully made…My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret…Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed… And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them."

    God’s involvement in life begins at the moment of conception when we are yet unformed. Doesn't this mean anything to the wmscog?

    #52017

    Elievalkyrie
    Member

    Just to add to genny's statement, I would like to state that you really do avoid giving direct answers to questions, FTOS. Like the time when I ask you in another forum: 

    "The laws I am talking about here pertains to ALL the laws, this includes the Passover, the Festivals and the 5 different Offerings. So you are saying Jesus fulfilled all of these when He died on the cross? I think I just require a yes or no answer to this one, i'll just wait for your answer."

    And you just answered: "you can find your answer if you read the book of hebrews, and understand it."

    And when I asked again, you didn't answer in your next comment. So you can see why I have reached the conclusion you are avoiding in giving direct answers.

    #52016

    genny
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    Also I already spoke of my relationship to Ron, 

    If you did, it was in a roundabout way.  You did not directly say if you knew him personally or for how long.

    Abortions? It's your choice, the bible doesn't  speak against it so why should we?

    The Bible doesn't speak against it?  It doesn't use the word "abortion" but it definitely speaks about murder, and about babies in the womb.  But you've answered that question–The wmscog teaches that God approves of abortion.  (Don't think that's what you said?  Well, if "Mother God" leaves it up to the person to decide, then that's saying she is absolutely fine when they choose abortion.  If she didn't approve of that choice, then she would speak against it.)

    By the way you communicate here, fromtheotherside, it does appear that you avoid answering direct questions, and that you don't answer questions in a direct way.  You've been asked more than once how long you've been part of the wmscog.  That doesn't take so long to answer that it cuts into your family time.

    Another direct question was what were you taught about 2012?   Will that need a complicated, time-consuming answer?  I hope not.  I expected an answer something like, "The wmscog taught me that nothing was special about 2012" or "The wmscog taught that 2012 was special because it would be the end of preaching / end of the world / return of 'Father' / last Passover / completion of the Heavenly Temple / 144,000 finally all found / or what…."

    Also, in another thread (https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/forum/topic.php?id=4486&page=4) you asked about evidence against the wmscog to be presented "without explanation" and I gave you 4 pieces of evidence.  Have you forgotten about that?  Are you researching or trying to find explanations?  I hope you are not ignoring it on purpose hoping it will go away.  Are you thinking that not answering is better than an inadequate answer?  I'm sure I'm not the only one waiting to see what you do with that evidence.

    It's not my intention to be a pest, but if you are having a hard time answering direct questions, you should ask yourself why?  And you should also be honest with yourself about this question, "If what I believe was not true, would I want to know?"  You don't need to answer it here publicly, but you do need to answer it honestly for yourself.–It will influence everything.

    #52015

    Elievalkyrie
    Member

    Hmmm… I am not sure why you are attacking all Calvinist now but do you have some background about our beliefs to be saying such things?

    Anyway, Jesus told his disciples that, not me but also not YOU, so I guess I could also say that you wouldn’t understand it also. Or are you claiming the disciples passed it down to Ahn and Zhang and they passed it down to you? Care to give me the historical facts for that?

    The bible doesn’t speak against abortions but it speaks about murder. Murder is killing an innocent person. Is the baby innocent? Definitely. Is the baby a “person?” A person have a soul. Does the bible specifically said the exact time when a “baby” is considered to have a soul? No, it doesn’t state the exact time so you will never be sure. Since you are not sure, the baby that they abort, no matter what age it is, MAY contain a soul. So you just tolerate it even with this possibility?

    Tell me, FTOS, did you tolerate abortions even before you entered the wmscog or not?

    #52014

    Avoiding asking direct questions?  Elie, some of us like to spend time doing other things instead of coming here to debate.  I will try to answer some of your many questions. 

    "just" to forgive sins, the wages of sin is death, that's a pretty hefty sin.  Do all calvinists take sin lightly?  Also there are many "secrets" in the bible, which even Jesus gave only to his disciples, "the secrets to the kingdom of him were meant for you not them"    So I can understand y you wouldn't understand it. 

    Also I already spoke of my relationship to Ron, 

    Abortions? It's your choice, the bible doesn't  speak against it so why should we?

    #52013

    Elievalkyrie
    Member

    The Secret of the Forgiveness of Sins? I didn't know God have some kind of a secret just to forgive sins, that really sounds weird.

    #52012

    Love'n Honey
    Member

    Simon wrote:

    lng wrote:

    Sarah2013 wrote:

    The baby does not have a soul until it exits its mother, per wmscog.

     Agree, that is what we were told. Sick!

    I was never told that.  I remember I went preaching with my Deacon. He was asked about abortion… and he did that "its not for us to judge" thing when doctrine is against it but they don't wanna say so

     I was told that Mother never explained exactly when the soul enters the baby so it is better safe than sorry, meaning DON'T get an abortion at any stage of your pregnancy. I was asking because we were on the study The Secret of the Forgiveness of Sins. Why we were born into this world. I also had the question about still births and miscarraiges.

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