- Topic
WMS brother wrote:
I really feel bad posting so much, but there is so much to say:
"That's how I remember it but it was never 100% clear to me"
I don't mean to offend anyone at all by this, it is no one's fault in particular.
I just wanted to demonstrate, and reiterate, that there is a lot of information in our studies. I mean seriously it takes a couple hours just to do one. While there are 50+ lower level studies. I too had to listen to the Tabernacles study three times before I understood it.
I agree that the bible is takes time to read but adding more and more doctrines that are not there makes it more longer. When I started reading the bible, it only took me two months before I came to understand fully. The fact is there is no hidden message in the bible and the prophecies weren't made so that people would go interpret it because only God could interpret it. Now you would go say, Ahn is god so he could interpret it then let me ask…did you do a background check on Ahn? Tried to know where he came from, tried to know what he did, what other people (not the WMSCOG) said about him, what his ORIGINAL teachings were, what he predicted? Before you go on saying that the man was a god, you need to verify it first NOT with the teachings the people taught you but in finding out the TRUTH about that person and that is where you base your convictions.
A lot of the things people say (even long time members) can come out seeming VERY wrong and unchristianlike on our part; if the details are neglected.
Jesus said himself that the mysteries of heaven were hidden, and he absolutely told the truth, they take a little time to unwravel.
Jesus said the mysteries of heaven were hidden, He didn't say you have to FIND OUT what is hidden!
In addition the scroll may -only- be opened by the Root of David, I.e. Jesus in the Flesh, I.e. in the future Jesus will be in the flesh again. I.e. if you have unwravled his mysteries than it is the very promise of God that the second coming of Jesus is the one responsible.
BECAUSE… No one else is worthy, or has been found to be worthy, to "open" the scrolls. Only Jesus is responsible for Biblical enlightenment, Jesus alone.
Okay then, then prove Ahn is Jesus. No, I don't have to attend this so called teachings you guys give, I just want to know what Ahn was like when he was alive. I want to know the Who, What, Where, When, How of HIM, not the wmscog teachings. We are in the modern world, people. There should be a autobiography of him somewhere.
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"I don't remember any verse being used to "prove" we tried to over-throw God."
Adam and Eve is a parable of the original people who were thrown out of heaven because they were tricked by the ("Dragon who is also known as the") Serpent.
But Satan still has angelic powers and still gets to fly into heaven and etc. He didn't truley get kicked out yet. Reference Job.
Please give the chapter and the verse.
There is a point in time when the real fire and brimstone events stop happening, and "demon spirits" fade into obscurity, and it directly after the time of Jesus.
I would like a bible verse for this one.
Concernign this, there is an explanation for the point in time when Satan fell, reference Revelations;
And there was war in heaven.
THUS
We rebelled against God's law not to "eat" of the "tree" and were banished. In whatever spiritual meaning that fulfilled, whatever it was, it wounded God deeply enough to banish us, their sons and daughters, to earth.
It WOUNDED God? Is God capable of being hurt? How sure are you that God did not plan for it to happen? Is God so lack in control of His creations?
In addition is explicitely stated later that there was a war in Heaven during the book of Revelations, and Satan, and Satan's angels, were thrown down to the Earth.
Not hell, Satan's angels are not in hell.
The earth.
Satan's angels are on earth.
Then please explain 2 Peter 2:4,
"For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment."
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"An omnipresent God doesn't need to use the phone or send emails in order to speak to us."
God didn't need to send letters with his prophets, either, but that was done gazillions of times during the old testament. That IS actually how God works.
The people themsevles wrote it, since ofcourse they need it for the so many laws that God told them. That was so people can use it as reference if they ever break a law. Since human memory is not like God's, ofcourse they needed to write it down.
Jesus didn't need to send messengers either, but he regularly used the Apostles to go and prepare things for him.
So your saying Jesus TOLD the Apostles to get him writing materials so He could write what He taught? I think not. The only time the bible mentioned Jesus writing was when the people were going to stone a woman, and Jesus wrote on the ground. That's it.
So, sorry, but that is actually the exact pattern of how God works.
To compare: No, Jesus does not have to teleport down from the Cross just because you don't believe he can, and desire to taunt him to.
IF He DID teleport down from the Cross, then how could He fulfill what was written?
"The fact is there is no hidden message in the bible"
Jesus disagrees with you in a very direct and literal way. There -are- secrets that have been hidden. He says there are secrets even since the creation of the world.
"finding out the TRUTH about that person"
I did. I checked to see if he was real, if he was an author of theese books, and if he preached about the Feasts. I looked at some pictures, and verified the dates given to me by the WMS.
They all match.
The rest is curious stuff to learn, but at this point, actually irrelevant to the fact that he brought us Eternal Life, and by that very virtue alone, MUST be God. I mean literally, that could stand on its own without the other prophecies.
But there are other prophecies.
A lot of them.
So yeah, its pretty legit to me.
I'm actually not bothered by the specific details of how he got started, or who he knew before beginning his work.
"He didn't say you have to FIND OUT what is hidden!"
I believe it is Apostle Paul who disagrees here, if I remember it was him to recounted a story of a man in a chariot who said "how am I supposed to udnerstand, unless someone explains it to me?". That is the biblical method. Men approved directly by God giving out the gospel knowledge which confound us mortals on a regular basis. Thats how its been since the beginning of the Old Testament.
"I just want to know what Ahn was like when he was alive."
Look up his history museum, yes, there is all kind of biographical things about it. Thers a video about how he worked hard at manual labor jobs, was in the 7th day adventist, and used a horribly poor amount of income to fund writing book after book of knowledge, which after long years, he finally organized and started taking the next step of founding the WMS, which did not exist then as it does today.
The beginning of the WMS was just Father and Mother together, without an organization's name, going door to door preaching. Theres a whole video about it.
Theres video and pictures of Mother, almost in rags, carrying huge bags of potatoes, so she could feed her congregation with the last dimes she owned.
THEN after Father's passing, the Elders were entrusted with the Books. Mother dictates that we are to follow the "male figurehead" example of Ahn-Sagn-Hong, and permits General Pastor to take that place; though he continues to take his advice from her and follow God diligently.
I'm actually, not sure if I want to continue this.
I'm actually a little bit surprised that so little is known about the people you hate so much with this mean spirited website.
I mean, why don't you go to Korea and just SEE the physical ruins of his original shack, and see the original works and pictures, and the things he loved.
A website devoted to defaming the WMS should at least know the basics about us. As it is, I am spoon feeding the forum members here things that I learned in my first two days.
Its kind of depressing that -THIS- is my faith's competition for top spaces on google.
No, a lot of the "history" thats been dug up has been so blatantly and obviously twisted, edited, or re-authored, that its just depressing you people believe it at face value. Did it ever occur to you that there was more behind those wicked stories? Look at some real pictures of Father and Mother happy together.
Maybe if you gave it a legitimate try, you could ask to see the intro videos. Its sometimes hard to schedule movie time, but when we got a group of brother and sisters that haven't seen it, we usually get everyone to do it together to save time.
I mean really, its not that hard to see it, if you make a better effort to learn than posting here.
"Please give the chapter and the verse."
Job Chapter One. The Very Beginning. You know, the story of Job?
Verse 6 "One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them."
Satan is still around at this point in time, and he even gets to fly around with the angels and talk to God. At this point in time, God isn't yelling at him, or seem to be very mad, you can notice.
In fact, it is God who "appears" to take Satan's advice in testing Job (though clearly it was God's plan from the beginning).
"That was so people can use it as reference if they ever break a law"
No, I'm talking about times like:
"Deliver this prophecy to the people of this old town over there" or things like "Go tell this to the King of Tyre"
God uses letters and messengers for tons of things, not just the Law.
"I would like a bible verse for this one."
The fire and brimstone stopped, when it stopped. I think the demons being driven out of the pigs were the last time in human history that demons or anything like them manifested. There is no verse saying "now the crazy stuff has stopped". I mean it just simply stopped happening, it was never recorded anymore. There are no new verses about demon possession, because there are no new verses. This can be noticed when the Apostles start passing on letters to the new churches that are goign to take over for them.
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At this point I think I'd rather go back to going through singular studies. I'm only one man and it would take years for me to dissect the entire Bible with all of you.
Suffice to say I'm a little dissapointed that so many verse citations are needed. Are not people as well versed as yourselves already aware of these stories?
If you are not so well versed, why are you criticizing someone else?
Just, in general. I'll catch up with any other replies later.
WMS brother wrote:
I mean, why don't you go to Korea and just SEE the physical ruins of his original shack, and see the original works and pictures, and the things he loved.
Do you really think the wmscog in Korea would really let me visit and see all of that if I showed up?
WMS brother wrote:
"The fact is there is no hidden message in the bible"
Jesus disagrees with you in a very direct and literal way. There -are- secrets that have been hidden. He says there are secrets even since the creation of the world.
There are secrets hidden but He did not say it is HIDDEN in the BIBLE or in His TEACHINGS.
No, a lot of the "history" thats been dug up has been so blatantly and obviously twisted, edited, or re-authored, that its just depressing you people believe it at face value. Did it ever occur to you that there was more behind those wicked stories? Look at some real pictures of Father and Mother happy together.
BEFORE you can say that it is BLATANTLY TWISTED and reauthored, you have to give proof that it is. Do you have one?
Maybe if you gave it a legitimate try, you could ask to see the intro videos. Its sometimes hard to schedule movie time, but when we got a group of brother and sisters that haven't seen it, we usually get everyone to do it together to save time.
I mean really, its not that hard to see it, if you make a better effort to learn than posting here.
I DID make an effort to learn, unfortunately ever since I transferred cities, my previous zion did not have anything to do with me anymore. I keep asking for a zion address here but they won't give it to me. Instead they ask my address and told me that I will just be APPROACHED here but I've bee waiting for how many months but it never did happen. So can you explain what that is all about?
""He didn't say you have to FIND OUT what is hidden!"
I believe it is Apostle Paul who disagrees here, if I remember it was him to recounted a story of a man in a chariot who said "how am I supposed to udnerstand, unless someone explains it to me?". That is the biblical method. Men approved directly by God giving out the gospel knowledge which confound us mortals on a regular basis. Thats how its been since the beginning of the Old Testament."
"you have to give proof that it is"
I did. I posted I think nine or ten different reasons the Jerusalem book was ridiculously authored, follow the comments on the home page of "examining". I can't keep up with all of this though so I'm going to have to trust people to do a little proving of their own.
~Elievalkyrie
genny – Call. Ask. Ask who you would need to get permission from. Ask that person what the requirements are to see it because you really want to learn.
I mean literally, we never EVER turn down a straightfoward request of "I'd love to learn" That is like the fastest way to get anywhere in the WMS. I think the worst case scenario would be that they want to teach a study first, but to be honest, maybe that would be a good thing, it would save me some time typing.
I don't imagine that baptism is a prerequisite, but otherwise, you can ask for pictures, or biographies, or other evidence from Deacons or higher ups. I mean unless you act like your interrogating them and making them suspicious, they teach all who have a legitimate desire to learn.
okay thank you for answering. sometimes I have trouble following people and their train of thought and I need clarification.
as far as Isaac being God chapter 12 of the green book says: Then Abraham made some bread and took a tender calf, and he brought some curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set them before God, who ate and said: “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son” (Gen. 18:10). By these words God meant that He would be born as Isaac.
I would have to get permission? If this is such a great truth for the world to know, why don't they set up an open museum where just anyone can go when they are on vacation in S. Korea?
genny – I don't know. Maybe it is? I haven't gone yet. Why don't you ask them instead of me?
The property was passed on to the WMS and contains sensative things that it would be sad to loose. I don't honestly know how its set up, but the first thing about learning someone else's religion, is respecting the way they do things.
"Simon"
Yes, I remember that now. Its supposed to be God setting up a prophecy of what happens with Jesus, and prophecy for the Jews to remember about how Jesus will come to them. I should re-read it though, I haven't done that study in a while.
"An omnipresent God doesn't need to use the phone or send emails in order to speak to us."
God didn't need to send letters with his prophets, either, but that was done gazillions of times during the old testament. That IS actually how God works.
Jesus didn't need to send messengers either, but he regularly used the Apostles to go and prepare things for him.
So, sorry, but that is actually the exact pattern of how God works.
I'm throwing a flag on this.
With this logic God would have had to call the prophets and tell them to write letters, what should be included in the letters, and who to deliver the letters to. God did not dial the phone to these folks and do this. This is not how God works. Jesus didn't email the apostles and ask them to do certain things. This is not how God works either. The pattern of using these man made devices is a way of man communicating with other men not God communicating with us.
Fifteen yard penalty. Repeat second down.
WMS brother wrote:
""He didn't say you have to FIND OUT what is hidden!"
I believe it is Apostle Paul who disagrees here, if I remember it was him to recounted a story of a man in a chariot who said "how am I supposed to udnerstand, unless someone explains it to me?". That is the biblical method. Men approved directly by God giving out the gospel knowledge which confound us mortals on a regular basis. Thats how its been since the beginning of the Old Testament."
I believe that was in book Acts. That doesn't mean that just because that man doesn't understand, ALL of us can't either. You are using universalism when you know that every man have different levels of understanding.
"you have to give proof that it is"
I did. I posted I think nine or ten different reasons the Jerusalem book was ridiculously authored, follow the comments on the home page of "examining". I can't keep up with all of this though so I'm going to have to trust people to do a little proving of their own.
The reasons you posted are just REASONS. You have to give evidential proof like materials, records even newspaper clippings. Anything that could disprove their claims and that the book was authored by bad people.
You have not answered this part of my comment:
I DID make an effort to learn, unfortunately ever since I transferred cities, my previous zion did not have anything to do with me anymore. I keep asking for a zion address here but they won't give it to me. Instead they ask my address and told me that I will just be APPROACHED here but I've bee waiting for how many months but it never did happen. So can you explain what that is all about?
I'm going to move to "miracles and exhibitions of God's power aren't going to happen for a while, thats the sign of false prophets" and go for a time out.
"The reasons you posted are just REASONS"
Look maybe later I will scan, catalog, and label every bible page and Truth book page just to gain ground here. But I'm not about to go through all that effort until I feel comfortable that our basic reasoning is respected.
The home page of "examine" doesn't show the hard work and good deeds we do, and the pictures and videos proving we did it. It only criticizes and shows pictures of bad things. I have no premise to believe any work I put in would be respected or even believed.
"my previous zion did not have anything to do with me anymore."
Did you not get phone numbers of group leaders and Deacons? There are several different zions that have phone numbers you can call for assistance. Did you make any friends at Zion and get their numbers?
Google maps shows all the WMS locations as top hits if you look in your state. Some states don't have any.
If you wanted sermons, I would be glad to provide them.
If you wanted me to pass on personal information I could do that too, if you trust a guy over the internet.
Nobody is unwilling to give zion adresses, but the reality is it can be hard to find convenient ones. I'd be glad to search i know where most of them are.
if the admin is right about them monitoring this site they probably figured out who you are is my guess
Simon
That is also very possible, such a defamatory site makes any honest attempts from members to ask for help or learning seem to have hidden motives.
WMS brother wrote:
"The reasons you posted are just REASONS"
Look maybe later I will scan, catalog, and label every bible page and Truth book page just to gain ground here. But I'm not about to go through all that effort until I feel comfortable that our basic reasoning is respected.
The home page of "examine" doesn't show the hard work and good deeds we do, and the pictures and videos proving we did it. It only criticizes and shows pictures of bad things. I have no premise to believe any work I put in would be respected or even believed.
"my previous zion did not have anything to do with me anymore."
Did you not get phone numbers of group leaders and Deacons? There are several different zions that have phone numbers you can call for assistance. Did you make any friends at Zion and get their numbers?
Google maps shows all the WMS locations as top hits if you look in your state. Some states don't have any.
If you wanted sermons, I would be glad to provide them.
If you wanted me to pass on personal information I could do that too, if you trust a guy over the internet.
Nobody is unwilling to give zion adresses, but the reality is it can be hard to find convenient ones. I'd be glad to search i know where most of them are.
First of all, your church, any where it is, is not ZION. Let's get that point out of the way right now. So STOP calling your buildings, Zion. Let's play a game called who wrote this, k ?
K, who wrote this:
The time that the tabernacle (New Jerusalem) see Revelation 21:3, 9-10) comes down is 1000 years after the end of the world. It is written, “Then I saw‘a new heaven and a new earth,’ for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.” (Revelation 21:1).
Question (from those of us who "need to study more") Has the world ended and if so, has 1000 years passed already ?
I really don't care if they know who I am or not. The fact that they are not willing to letting me in to a new zion speaks a thousand words already. No matter what you say to defend the wmscog WMS brother, I can't believe it if I don't see it in my particular zion. The fact is that they abandon me, because I expressedly told them before I left the previous city that I find many inconsistencies with their teachings. Yes, as a matter of fact I do have their contact numbers, even my own brother (still a member) doesn't talk to me anymore about wmscog teachings.
I keep hearing the the words: When the walls, come tumblin' down, when the walls come tumblin' down, when the walls come tumblin' tumblin' downnnnnnnn. Nice hack attempt LOL. Are you's happy in your Heart. I noticed WMS Borther didn't wanna answer the question. He can't. He's gotta get the party line from his handlers before he says anything.
"Was Isaac God in the Flesh?"
I remember having a study about Abraham's family, but I can't remember that particular detail. I'm leaning towards no because that seems like an important enoguh thing that I should remember it. But its possible I'm dumb and forgot. Why do you believe its important?
Simon wrote:
okay thank you for answering. sometimes I have trouble following people and their train of thought and I need clarification.
as far as Isaac being God chapter 12 of the green book says: Then Abraham made some bread and took a tender calf, and he brought some curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set them before God, who ate and said: "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son" (Gen. 18:10). By these words God meant that He would be born as Isaac.
My friend was taught that yes Isaac was God in the flesh, because God said I will surely return to you next year and Sarah your wife will have a son. And surely Sarah became pregnant and had a child, but God did not return to them, the way he left them. He came back as an infant? (this was taught in late 2011-early 2012,) that's more or less the time I remember my friend showing me the study. I remember him been so amazed that God came not once or twice but multipy times. They said he was Melchizedek too.
Which brings me to the question, so that means that when God was testing Abraham and told him to scarifice his son, and Abraham was about to do it, it was God who was going to be killed?( it just doesn't make sense)
plus When Issac was Married he lied about his wife and said she was his sister because he was afraid he might get killed ( does not make sense) God fears no one we are the ones who should fear the Lord Almighty, and so God does not lie, and he is not a God of confusion, and this whole thing is just a big tangled web, and this is why I needed to know if you had the same study and clarify this for me.
WMS Brother, I thought for a moment you were my son and I got excited that you were actually doing some research. Unfortunately, if the information you posted regarding your length of time in WMSCOG is accurate, you are not him. The reason I got so hopeful is that you are a very well-spoken individual and I truly believe you, similar to our son, think you are truly saving people. What concerns me is that similar to our son, you rely on one resource…always going to the leaders above you for answers. In any situation, that is not a reliable approach. You have to search sideways and upside-down as well.
I watched my son go from a typical teenager, experiencing things that were not in his best interest, to not interacting with his friends, asking his girlfriend (non-member) to marry him when he was clearly not ready for marriage and then turning around nine months later and marrying a Korean girl that had a VISA running out. I have read his text messages to the ex-girlfriend, only to help find the truth, and cry every time because similar to his texts to her regarding his baptism at WMSCOG, he clearly was being pressured to remove her from his life (of course he will tell you it was his decision) because she would not join the church.
There are many reasons, as his parent, that I have been extremely concerned about his affiliation. He is a good person, he is a loving person, and God knows he is a caring person! The people that I have met in WMSCOG all seem to be very nice people, heck look at the people that are discussing this on this forum, they spend their time trying to enlighten those still in this organization. What is the benefit to them? They, like many others, could wipe their hands clean of this organization and say "have a good day", but I believe they feel sorry for the people they may have brought into this organization and feel a sense of responsibility for setting the record straight. As I told our son, I will fight until the end of times to have my fun loving son back. The day his eyes are opened is the day I believe he will fall to the ground and cry uncontrollably because he is so sure that he has found the truth.
You cannot hide behind bible verses; interpretation is a powerful thing and in the right hands can be abused. You have a responsibility to yourself and any person that you introduced to this organization to ensure that it is not just another Korean organization that is claiming they are the second coming Christ. Research will show you, they are a dime a dozen in Korea and they all use the same tactics.
My son's short story, which actually made my husband wake up and realize there was more to the WMSCOG than a passing thing for our college kid was the day our son told us he was moving out and moving into this girls apartment. We had never met the girl and he had never mentioned her before. Based on our experience with WMSCOG, we knew that "shacking" up was probably not an accepted practice, so we asked if he was planning to marry her. He said his intentions were to eventually marry, but not right away. We told him we thought that was contradictory to his belief system for both how he was raised and his "new found religious affiliation". We met the girl a week later, one week before they moved in together. There was no chemistry there whatsoever and it was awkward to watch them at best.
They continue to tell us over the next couple months that they were not married. Mother's intuition said they were lying to us. We verified with the state that in fact there was a marriage certificate on file. I know that you will say that he should not have lied and that the deacons and missionaries would say that he should have told us, but as I watch Ron and Diane's videos, that explanation makes more sense to me than the deacons and missionaries not knowing they were lying to us.
Last week, after these videos came out which we forwarded to our son, he showed up at our house with his wife. He proceeded to draw a diagram showing us how our interactions are negative occasions as we only talk about his church. That if we want to continue a relationship with them, we need to stop talking negatively about their church. My husband has spent days reading books on thought reform and destructive organizations and it is very clear to both of us that these same tactics are used within WMSCOG. They say that Ron and Diane are liars and they are obviously getting paid for this…what is the payoff for Ron and Diane? Who would pay them? I personally am grateful that someone in the leadership position is finally speaking out against this group and hope that more of you do the same thing. There are a lot of parents out there in the same exact position as we are and have no resources to help us open our children's eyes.
Please WMS Brother, take the time to read the documentation provided on this website and continue to research other resources as well. There is a movie available on Amazon called "The Wave", it is a true story about an experiment done in a high school in Palo Alto, CA in the 1960's. It is amazing how quickly you can take over the mind and the people involved do not even realize it. I challenge you to order this video and then sit with a group of your WMSCOG brothers (hopefully one will be my son) and watch. Start talking about thought reform and truly ask them if they are ever doubtful. That does not mean you are a bad person and/or there is anything wrong with your relationship with God, it means you are exercising your God given right to free-will and thinking for yourself. If you go to your deacon/missionary/pastor, you will most likely be discouraged or asked to "pray" about it.
I am positive you have a mother out there, just like my son that loves you and misses you! It is not a mistake that the Virgin Mary is such an important part of the Bible!
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