[genny]

I think a distinction should be made between two types of evidences.

There are those evidences related to experience.  But if it's not actually written and published, it's very hard to prove that its official doctrine.  And we've seen that experiences can vary person to person, region to region.  Examples:

Whether or not the wmscog preaches to the poor or homeless;

Whether or not (and when) blacks were preached to;

How strongly the ten talents movement was preached…

Even whether or not the end of the world would be 2012 could fall into this category, since it seems pretty hard to track that down in writing.  Without it being published, it's easy for the wmscog to say that anyone preaching a 2012 end date just misunderstood.

Our wmscog friends have been arguing these types of evidences strongly.  And how far does that go?  Not very, really, since experiences vary and are hard to prove to someone who wasn't there.

Yes, I'm speaking to you now, FTOS and 144000 and 1004 and any other members reading…

I believe you are putting all your energies into debating these kind of experience evidences so that you can ignore the evidence that exists in the published documents and doctrine of the wmscog.

There is enough evidence against the wmscog from their own publications that has nothing to do with experiences.  With published evidence, you cannot say that we heard wrong, or that we misunderstood, or that it was just a fluke happening.  And these are not issues with different Bible interpretations either.

I'd like to start a list of those evidences here.  It would probably be too much to debate them all in this one thread.  These already have been discussed in previous threads, but we could start new threads as needed.  I'll get the list started:

— The problem with the 7th month feasts being kept in the 8th month on some years.

— The historical inaccuracy of the teaching (regarding the Antichrist) of the 10 kingdoms and the year 538.

— The ineligibility of Zahng, Kim, and the WMSCOG itself to receive Presidential Service Awards as they are shown.

— The teaching of a God who lies.

Please add to the list, but also please remember to limit the list to evidence that is published (and therefore no debate about whether or not the wmscog actually teaches it).  Also, let's try to refrain from issues that are of a Bible interpretation nature, unless it's something really clear.

[144000]

[144000]

We have already explained why you are wrong, or where you have been mislead, or how there is more to the story than you know, about all these accounts.

We have also pointed out your goalpost shifting every time we start to prove the members of this forum wrong. You change topics.

When we say "here is how we believe in daniel" you people say "oh but it doesn't matter because Christ can't die a second time!" and when we say "he did not die for our sins he came to teach as the holy spirit" you people say "oh but it doesn't matter because you are frauds because of the presidents award" and when we say "your making assumptions about something you don't know the whole story to" you people say "oh but you never answered me about king david's 37 years!" and when we say "we already told you about king david's 37 years" you people say "oh but look how you miscalculated the ostrogoths in daniels prophecy" WHICH LEADS US RIGHT BACK TO THE BEGINNING.

I have never seen so much goalpost shifting in all my life.

All of your weak and insubstantial arguments have been shot down in the forum before, and I will not humor them again. Anyone who reads this thread can recieve answers in Zion, and see your pitiful claims crumble apart in the archives as you try to introduce chaos and confusion to decieve people.

[Simon]

Nice straw man

[Simon]

By the way from what i have seen youve never addressed anything ever

[emil]

@144000 – you say we shift goalposts. I sincerely believe that you guys are doing it. This kind of finger pointing will get us nowhere. So now that Genny has taken this initiative, I completely agree with what she is saying. Let us avoid diversion and stick to the topic of each thread. Let us try to stick to hard published evidence and not resort to personal experiences. Let us not make vague statements and put words in each others' mouths. Deal?

[Sarah2013]

emil wrote:

@144000 – you say we shift goalposts. I sincerely believe that you guys are doing it. This kind of finger pointing will get us nowhere. So now that Genny has taken this initiative, I completely agree with what she is saying. Let us avoid diversion and stick to the topic of each thread. Let us try to stick to hard published evidence and not resort to personal experiences. Let us not make vague statements and put words in each others' mouths. Deal?

No deal. 

[Sarah2013]

genny wrote:

I think a distinction should be made between two types of evidences.

There are those evidences related to experience.  But if it's not actually written and published, it's very hard to prove that its official doctrine.  And we've seen that experiences can vary person to person, region to region.  Examples:

Whether or not the wmscog preaches to the poor or homeless;

Whether or not (and when) blacks were preached to;

How strongly the ten talents movement was preached…

Even whether or not the end of the world would be 2012 could fall into this category, since it seems pretty hard to track that down in writing.  Without it being published, it's easy for the wmscog to say that anyone preaching a 2012 end date just misunderstood.

Our wmscog friends have been arguing these types of evidences strongly.  And how far does that go?  Not very, really, since experiences vary and are hard to prove to someone who wasn't there.

Yes, I'm speaking to you now, FTOS and 144000 and 1004 and any other members reading…

I believe you are putting all your energies into debating these kind of experience evidences so that you can ignore the evidence that exists in the published documents and doctrine of the wmscog.

There is enough evidence against the wmscog from their own publications that has nothing to do with experiences.  With published evidence, you cannot say that we heard wrong, or that we misunderstood, or that it was just a fluke happening.  And these are not issues with different Bible interpretations either.

I'd like to start a list of those evidences here.  It would probably be too much to debate them all in this one thread.  These already have been discussed in previous threads, but we could start new threads as needed.  I'll get the list started:

— The problem with the 7th month feasts being kept in the 8th month on some years.

— The historical inaccuracy of the teaching (regarding the Antichrist) of the 10 kingdoms and the year 538.

— The ineligibility of Zahng, Kim, and the WMSCOG itself to receive Presidential Service Awards as they are shown.

— The teaching of a God who lies.

Please add to the list, but also please remember to limit the list to evidence that is published (and therefore no debate about whether or not the wmscog actually teaches it).  Also, let's try to refrain from issues that are of a Bible interpretation nature, unless it's something really clear.

So if 150 people say they saw me steal a piece of pizza wtth no camera or video to prove this,  should I be arrested for that and convicted, Genny? Trust me, the answer to this proves my reason for asking it. 

[genny]

Sarah2013 wrote:

So if 150 people say they saw me steal a piece of pizza wtth no camera or video to prove this,  should I be arrested for that and convicted, Genny? Trust me, the answer to this proves my reason for asking it. 

I think I know what you are saying Sarah.  And yes, experience accounts for evidence too.  It's just harder to use it in this case with people who refuse to accept it.

I do believe that the experiences that have been shared here really did happen, and that they do show how the teachings of the wmscog are lived out in their members.  But look how easy it is for people who refuse to acknowledge there's anything wrong here.  They say that it's not a problem with the wmscog and its doctrines, its a problem with the people–if only all the members followed the real teachings of the wmscog perfectly, you wouldn't experience those problems (so they would say).

I don't believe that's true.  I think the real teachings are lived out in the members, and do show up in the experience problems we've seen.  But how can you prove that when these things are not written down, and even sometimes not said directly?  (Remember about how sometimes it's not what is said, but what is not said?)

But for the people who refuse to acknowledge anything wrong with the wmscog for those kinds of reasons, they should know that there is solid, published, can't-argue-that-they-don't-teach-it evidence.  They can't dismiss that kind of evidence the way they dismiss people's experiences.

[Sarah2013]

Aha! You certainly got my point. I understand your reasons but had to say that Publicly. Thanks. 

[genny]

144000 wrote:

We have already explained why you are wrong, or where you have been mislead, or how there is more to the story than you know, about all these accounts.

We have also pointed out your goalpost shifting every time we start to prove the members of this forum wrong. You change topics.

When we say "here is how we believe in daniel" you people say "oh but it doesn't matter because Christ can't die a second time!" and when we say "he did not die for our sins he came to teach as the holy spirit" you people say "oh but it doesn't matter because you are frauds because of the presidents award" and when we say "your making assumptions about something you don't know the whole story to" you people say "oh but you never answered me about king david's 37 years!" and when we say "we already told you about king david's 37 years" you people say "oh but look how you miscalculated the ostrogoths in daniels prophecy" WHICH LEADS US RIGHT BACK TO THE BEGINNING.

I have never seen so much goalpost shifting in all my life.

All of your weak and insubstantial arguments have been shot down in the forum before, and I will not humor them again. Anyone who reads this thread can recieve answers in Zion, and see your pitiful claims crumble apart in the archives as you try to introduce chaos and confusion to decieve people.

You've already explained why we are wrong?  Let's see.  From conversations with members like you, I've learned these answers…

— The problem with the 7th month feasts being kept in the 8th month on some years.

Answer — Those were on leap years.  Not a valid answer because the leap month is added at the end of the year.  Still awaiting an answer on this one.

— The historical inaccuracy of the teaching (regarding the Antichrist) of the 10 kingdoms and the year 538.

Answer — No answer yet for the 10 kingdoms part.  Answer for the year 538–the year had significance for God even if it wasn't the final year for the Ostrogoths.  Not valid because it still ignores the historical inaccuracy.

— The ineligibility of Zahng, Kim, and the WMSCOG itself to receive Presidential Service Awards as they are shown.

Answer — So what if they weren't really eligible for the award.  The members who applied for the awards on their behalf meant well.  Not a valid answer because it shows ignorance and deceit on the part of the wmscog for touting the awards.

— The teaching of a God who lies.

Answer — There is no problem with God lying.  If God is doing it, then it is right.  Not a valid answer because it ignores that God is truth and Satan is the father of lies.

So, 144000, have I misunderstood any of those answers?  Would you like to make any corrections?  (Notice I have not "shifted the goalposts" as you are fond of saying.)

[genny]

Sarah2013 wrote:

Aha! You certainly got my point. I understand your reasons but had to say that Publicly. Thanks. 

Point taken.  Glad you said it. 🙂

[Sarah2013]

🙂

[emil]

Sarah2013, I do believe eschewing personal experience, thus blocking vague claims will hurt them more than it will us.

[Sarah2013]

emil wrote:

Sarah2013, I do believe eschewing personal experience, thus blocking vague claims will hurt them more than it will us.

In saying vague you mean claims without raw evidence. If so, that will entail zillions of members. We go by what we saw. So like I said, if I steal a piece of pizza should I be persecuted and convicted if 150 people claim they saw me do it? 

[Simon]

The problem with the analogy is with wmscog is there is allegations and evidence both the prosecution always uses the best evidence if you published like 10 books and several short videos on stealing pizzza the prosecution would rely on that rather than the 150 people as the bulk of the argument

[Simon]

You also need witnesses saying you DIDN’T steal the pizza for a complete analogy

[144000]

Simon,

Which would be 1.7 million versus 150, to be precise.

And it was no strawman, we have addressed the claims in the original post before and we did not avoid them then.

Emil,

Hmm, try searching keywords "doesn't matter beacuse" or "at least" and similar indications of goalpost shifting, you'll notice most if not all come from you guys, not us.

Genny,

Yes, you did get it wrong, no I'm not going to waste more of my good time arguing about it, you have archives, you can read them. If you still can't find it, too bad.

[Simon]

It was very much a strawman

And we can’t know the ratio when even the member count isn’t consistent

[Simon]

You have never answered a thing only called people wrong or liars put up or shut up

[emil]

I completely agree with Simon. I too have never seen any coherent reply to anything. Every question I have asked, they have spewed out volumes of words that were ultimately off topic.

[Sarah2013]

Simon wrote:

You also need witnesses saying you DIDN'T steal the pizza for a complete analogy

I get it. But 150 said I did.