- Topic
Hello,
I have been told by a MSCOG member , yesterday 6/19/2013 they needed to have an emergencyservice because Mother says that this is the year the New Jerusalem will be completed. Meaning the world will end this year. Does anyone know how this is possible? The bible states in Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Here is the complete passage: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of theearth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power andgreat glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other . 32 Now learna parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know thatsummer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even atthe doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass , till all these things be fulfilled .35 Heaven and earth shall pass away , but my words shall not pass away . 36 But of that day andhour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days ofNoe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be . 38 For as in the days that were beforethe flood they were eating and drinking , marrying and giving in marriage , until the day that Noeentered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came , and took them all away ; so shall alsothe coming of the Son of man be . 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken , andthe other left .
@Renita…we got the "mother said" speech about not doing business with each other. Their justification about that was if something goes wrong with the business relationship it could affect our zion relationship. Also it was recommended that we not spend too much time out of zion hanging out. The reason for this was we would see our brothers/sisters flaws. Lots of control mechanisms.
I remember a sister told me they were told they must wear skirts and panty hose for 3rd day service because mother does. Strange. I figured it shouldnt matter what you wore as long as you dressed appropriately.
I'm glad there's someone who can cosign. If we aren't supposed to do business with brothers/sisters, then what's with Jae Hoon-Lee, Dong Il-Lee, Bong Hee-Lee, Kim Joo-Cheol, and all those other Koreans running a business [Big Shine, Inc] together?
I hope the current members see that the Koreans have a much longer leash than anyone else. They seem to be allowed to do everything we can't and not be questioned.
Disturbed wrote:
@Simon…I was told that Joshua was 25 when Moses appointed him and GP was supposed to follow suit and be 25 when Ash turned the reigns over to him.
I've been doing some research and here's what I found.
Num 14:29-30 God said anyone who was at least 20 at the time of the exodus and grumbled against God would not enter the promised land. They will die in the wilderness. He made an exception for Joshua and Caleb. This means that during the exodus, Joshua was at least 20 years old otherwise God would not have needed to make the exception, right? Real question.. Am I right?
Assuming I'm right Josh 5:6 says 40 years had passed before all of those people who were not allowed to see the land died. Joshua survived them just as God said. This would make Joshua at least 60 years old.
Assuming I'm wrong and that Joshua was of a younger age during the exodus, the youngest he could be when they reach the promised land is 40 because he was not born in the wilderness.
According to Josh 1:1-9 Joshua didn't take Moses' place until he died which wasn't until they made it to the promised land.
Meaning, Joshua was at least 40 when he succeeded Moses, not 25. God appointed Joshua to take Moses' place, to succeed him. Joshua may have been 25 when Moses appointed him to lead an army in Ex 17:9. But if the WMSCOG is using that event [army] to say GP is to Ash as Joshua is Moses, then are sadly mistaken because GP took the lead after Ash died, not during his life.
renita.payno wrote:
I don't think Smurf's attacking Jellybean. I think he's just frustrated with people reading into verses in a way that is misleading regardless of who's doing it.
This is Solomon Asch's change-of-meaning hypothesis. Meaning, once people have formed an impression, they start to interpret inconsistent information in light of that impression.
The battle of doctrine plays right into the hand of the group and its leadership because the principle controls are basic psychology.
It's great that people are "examining", but if anyone thinks that this helps a member then I beg to differ.
Questioninginla wrote:
renita.payno wrote:
I don't think Smurf's attacking Jellybean. I think he's just frustrated with people reading into verses in a way that is misleading regardless of who's doing it.
This is Solomon Asch's change-of-meaning hypothesis. Meaning, once people have formed an impression, they start to interpret inconsistent information in light of that impression.
The battle of doctrine plays right into the hand of the group and its leadership because the principle controls are basic psychology.
It's great that people are "examining", but if anyone thinks that this helps a member then I beg to differ.
I'm sure I've expressed how your dialect often confuses me. Could you dumb this down some?
It is not my intention to make anyone mad. Judging by the WMSCOG concepts where if you don’t believe everything their god says you have no faith, Sarah didn’t believe and didn’t have faith in the circumstances I already mentioned. @renita that is very awesome that you found someone from there that left, I wish that happens to me and I am not trying to mislead anyone because I am not asking for anyone to follow me or to lead anyone. @smurf unfortunately for you I can leave my opinions here and I am not twisting no verses. she did not believed at her age she could bear a child if so why would she react like she did? I don’t blame her because I in her situation will hardly believe that too. The point here is not to know whether she ended up having faith or not but rather to see that we cannot have a perfect faith like the members of this church what to pretend that they are so perfect and that they are becoming perfect because that is not possible in this world. They make feel these members so guilty about having a husband or a wife that doesn’t belong to the church because they assume these people are so imperfect and are not going to heaven. Many times they say that satan uses their couple to not let them go to the activities in “Zion.” The details of that situation are in Michelle Colon experience. If you really believe in what they preach you will rather marry someone that is going to heaven, wouldn’t you? (Manipulation )
It's the "End of the World".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeo0_3gN190
Take me to the "Promised Land".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsT2oA4xPiQ </font>
Lets all take the "Stairway to Heaven".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBPVlTibs0o
Come on up for "The Rising".
Questioninginla wrote:
Its about the controls, not the doctrine. they may appear to be the same but they are not. address the controls and do it in a way so as to not be attacking the group.
Q-Ball, perhaps you should use capital letters so your above post SINKS IN for some people!!!
It's not a church, it's a —-, they brainwash people and steal their money!!! (just for you i did not use the C-word) but for those who can handle it the unedited version of this post should be visible below
I call bullshit that examination helps noone
RP, in this post, I was directing my comments generically – not at anyone in particular:
Questioninginla wrote:
Its about the controls, not the doctrine. they may appear to be the same but they are not. address the controls and do it in a way so as to not be attacking the group.
Solomon Asch's Change-of-Meaning hypothesis is that once people have formed an impression, they start to interpret inconsistent information in light of that impression.
When test subjects were told that a person was kind and then that this person was calm, they assumed that he/she was gentle, peaceful, and serene.
When another set of test subjects were told that a person was mean and then that this person was calm, they assumed that he/she was cool, shrewd, and calculating.
Yes, I am taking information from a psychological study and applying that to believers/scripture, but other studies also agree that once people have a worldview, new information is just adjusted to fit the existing belief system rather than changing the worldview. When the popular belief was that the Earth was the center of the universe (this lasted for 1100 years) scientists had to present the Earth in this model as off-center in order for it to work – the Earth as not actually the center of the universe to prove that the Earth is the center of the universe! Further, Mercury and Venus circle back on themselves in the night sky while the rest of the stars do what they are supposed to do in this model. So, scientists created an invisible gravitational force that bound Mercury and bound Venus, and these two invisible forces orbited the Earth and contained these two planets as satellites; problem solved! Even when Copernicus presented overwhelming evidence for the Earth not being the center, it took Galileo as well to make this monumental crossing of the new belief system because there was more than just science to overcome, there was social pressure to conform to scientific theories that were embedded in belief systems. The church was not appreciative and Galileo spent his last days under house arrest.
Additionally, people have to see that the effort they put in to a potentially new worldview belief system as worth the effort – this is where fear and ostracism/excommunication become more obstacles to overcome. My feeling, based upon this and other research and evidence, is that members would rather debate doctrine and figure out ways to explain away "Mercury" and "Venus" in the night sky, so-to-speak. Imagine that we are status quo scientists/professors from the era right at the time of Copernicus/Galileo and we have a tremendous amount of time, energy, and reputation in the status-quo. What we would be doing by embracing Copernicus/Galileo is researching and training ourselves to prove ourselves wrong. We simply wouldn't do that because we have too much invested, the social pressure is too high, no one wants to be first, and what's really the harm, and [insert more excuses here]. It took the telescope to better view and research the Mercury and Venus problems in the theory.
Using this analogy, with the scientific community it would be one of forming a contagion in the scientific community for the new sun-is-what-the-Earth-orbits and get the new theory to "take off". When ostracism/excommunication (discussing members here) is an obstacle the contagion effect is not an option. But again, as with the effect of the telescope one could argue that finding problems with scripture is analogous to opening the door to change in worldview as in Mercury/Venus, above. All I am proposing is that we all know that the group is really good at finding a way to explain away scripture problems. Thus, we never get past the Mercury/Venus step and we still have to overcome the problems with fear/loss of salvation/excommunication, etc.
For these reasons, I am more for finding ways to expose the control systems themselves. That being said, this is an "examining" website and scriptural problems are part of that and are fair game, as is what-did-the-leader-say-and-when, prophecies, previous marriages, etc. I just feel strongly that the control systems are vulnerable once "Toto reveals the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain".
X-Men.
The control systemsare a weak argument especially since it reinforces what they say abouthow we don’t even try to counter their doctrinebecause we can’t/don’t know
While I was Investigating about Mirage, Divorce & Abortion I knew many things WMSCOG. 1. Mirage is done in zion saying that mother have paired you with him, they even don't know each other. with enter-cast which is very difficult to accept in society as well in there family too. So, many couple have divorced. 2. In many cases divorces is specially advice by church. Eg. If a husband is not attending church, not keeping faith, not letting his wife to go church, not giving offering, if drunk in such case missionary ………………………… advice to divorce her husband. 3. I myself have seen many Abortion. some time I became very familar with many married males and ask about abortion almost many of their wifes have done abortion. some say four times, some say three times, some say two times, some say once. but I haven't heard more than four time I must not lie.this is my confess which I knew while Invistigating. When I search about Abortion in the bible I found many verses which says abortion is biggest crime and sin, then how could god forgive WMSCOG member. this very different from bible.
Simon wrote:
The control systemsare a weak argument especially since it reinforces what they say abouthow we don't even try to counter their doctrinebecause we can't/don't know
1) The doctrine is the pull to get people into the control systems.
2) The control systems are essentially the same no matter the cult – political, religious
3) From the research on the surveys I did with ex-members, recognition of the control systems is where the implosion occurs – ie, why people exit.
Additionally, my last post borders on a problem that the "West" has, most specifically the USA. In the USA we are top of the list of countries that are individually focused. Scientifically, we make the greatest "fundamental attribution errors". The fundamental attribution error is the tendency to look individually as opposed to the situation. As it pertains to this error, the West significantly splits from the East as children hit puberty and gain adulthood at age 18. This is most likely why college campuses are great territory for recruitment.
As a society we just don't look to the situation, we look to the individual. For example, silver medalists just didn't train hard enough in the West, but silver medalists from Eastern countries are more likely to look to the coaching and the team and other situational aspects to give praise or attribute loss. (explaining the 2nd place finish)
We simply need help from the get-go in recognition of situational awareness. imho, bible debates don't do that.
I call bull shit
I believe both approaches have their merits and neither should be abandonned. There is no one-size-fits-all approach that will work.
Personally, I do not think the members will easily perceive the control system. Most would probably see the falsehoods in doctrine first. But that is only a guess. And I am from an Eastern country.
Questioninginla wrote:
Additionally, my last post borders on a problem that the "West" has, most specifically the USA. In the USA we are top of the list of countries that are individually focused. Scientifically, we make the greatest "fundamental attribution errors". The fundamental attribution error is the tendency to look individually as opposed to the situation. As it pertains to this error, the West significantly splits from the East as children hit puberty and gain adulthood at age 18. This is most likely why college campuses are great territory for recruitment.
As a society we just don't look to the situation, we look to the individual. For example, silver medalists just didn't train hard enough in the West, but silver medalists from Eastern countries are more likely to look to the coaching and the team and other situational aspects to give praise or attribute loss. (explaining the 2nd place finish)
We simply need help from the get-go in recognition of situational awareness. imho, bible debates don't do that.
So Q, would you suggest that high school's add "mind control" the effects the dangers and all related courses to the curriculum? It could run in conjunction with a health class. Cults are obviously not the only people using mind control.
Bible debates are about as good as trying to figure out if the amway products are any good. Anybody who comes to your front door with a big smile on their face is probably influenced by mind control.
While most of the ex-members on this forum seem to have been influenced by the inaccuacies with the doctrine, most exmembers i speak to outside this forum tell me they got out when they realized they had been influenced by mind control techniques. I don't know why that seperation exists but it does.
I agree, we can't throw out either approach. Those of us who can recognize mind control techniques should make those apparent. Those of us who can recognize doctrine disagreements should bring up those topics. Those of us who can come up with highly offensive insults should provide them. We each have our own talents. =)
I would have left this site and stayed with Q's approach
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