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It sucks to say this, but thanks to this whole expierience, im closing the book on religion… If jesus is real, im probally doomed, or he will have mercy on me. i didnt believe in jesus before this group, and now after it i find it hard to believe any church out there… I feel like im back at square one, asking the same questions i started with… I have faith that God will lead me wherever i need be. sorry for the rant just need to express these feelings
That’s the question that hangs me up on the devil, Renita. I just can’t believe that a god who is just and good would create evil. For any reason. Happy holidays Renita, hope you’re with your loved ones.
Why does one have to believe that?
What is the problem with believing that evil came because of the pride and mutiny of a group of angels?
because Yehovah said he created evil
Isaiah 45:7I form the light and create darkness I make peace and create evil I the LORD do all these things
Isn’t evil or good a comparison? I mean, what good without the bad? Have you ever been through a bad situation and then some simple that you never really acknowledged before made you smile? I think evil is necessary for us to understand the things we take for granted. But obviously the scripture says that god is responsible for the existence of evil. But yeshua said to the pharisees that there’s a father of lies. Wouldn’t that be god because he created them?
Them being the lies.
Yeshuah said the Father of lies is Satan what that means I don't know
Which is why I wonder if god is satan.
renita.payno wrote:
Which is why I wonder if god is satan.
No, God is not satan. Can you explain in more detail what your thoughts are?
Evil is an absence of good. Lies are an absence of truth.
Where in the bible does it say evil is the absence of god and lies are the absence of truth? God is our father because he created us. God is the father of all things because he created all things. God had to create lies and evil otherwise it wouldn’t exist. So wouldn’t that make him the father of lies and evil? But god says satan is the father of lies. So, a=b, b=c, a=c.. god is the father of lies.
But if lies/evil are the absence of god and god is everywhere at all times, then there shouldn’t be any lies or evil. Now it makes sense that hell doesn’t exist. Because, as I was told, hell is the absence of god. But god is everywhere all the time. So god would be in hell too. But then it wouldn’t be hell if god was there. So that means either god is not omnipresent or hell doesn’t exist.
renita.payno wrote:
Where in the bible does it say evil is the absence of god and lies are the absence of truth?
some things we may know without appealing to Scripture, but rather through the intellect (e.g. 2+2 = 4)
truth and falsity are mutually exclusive. in math this is very clear (2+2=4 and 2+2=5 can not both be true). if we believe God is good, and that evil is not good, then we might also say evil is an absence of God. unlike math though (which is a simplified model of the world around us), God's presence (or even knowing a friend for that matter) is not as black and white (more on that below). again, i am appealing to reason here.
renita.payno wrote:
God is our father because he created us. God is the father of all things because he created all things. God had to create lies and evil otherwise it wouldn't exist. So wouldn't that make him the father of lies and evil? But god says satan is the father of lies. So, a=b, b=c, a=c.. god is the father of lies.
God created all things good:
Genesis 1:31 – And God saw all the things that he had made, and they were very good. And the evening and morning were the sixth day.
As Christians, we believe that evil entered the world through man's free will to turn away from God and His infinite goodness:
Romans 5:12 – Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
therefore, evil is not a "thing" that God made, but rather a choice or our free will.
the existance of evil is a theological question philosophers have pondered for a very long time. here is a bit more reading on the topic:
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm
renita.payno wrote:
But if lies/evil are the absence of god and god is everywhere at all times, then there shouldn't be any lies or evil.
I think we are getting caught up in the semantics of the language here:
Psalm 5:4-5 – For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You. The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
To your original point, this verse shows that evil, however we think about it, or however it came to be, is not pleasing in the site of God. That we know for sure, the rest is an interesting theological discussion.
renita.payno wrote:
Now it makes sense that hell doesn't exist. Because, as I was told, hell is the absence of god. But god is everywhere all the time. So god would be in hell too. But then it wouldn't be hell if god was there. So that means either god is not omnipresent or hell doesn't exist.
I think we are oversimplifying things. Jesus makes numerous references to hell in the NT. For instance, Mark 9:41-43.
renita.payno wrote:
So that means either god is not omnipresent or hell doesn't exist.
why can hell not be good in so far as God created it? in that case, God may exist there in so far as He created it. an abscence of God is not a black or white thing. there are degrees to God's presence (just like temperature). we may be closer to Him or further away. hell would be very very far away. the Apostles were close to Jesus in a way that we do not know. in the next life, we hope to be closer to Him in a way that we do not know now.
Ttr.. you misunderstood me about god not being omnipresent. People say hell is the absence of god. Meaning god is not there. Meaning god is not omnipresent. But if god is omnipresent then there isn’t a hell. I didn’t say it was good or evil. I basing its existence off of god being there or not.
The other things you say make some sense. In basic algebra, 2+2 will never be 5. But in genesis, it says god created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. So, hell doesn’t exist. A man named yeshua came to town filling up the hearts of the people with fear of an eternally painful alternate destination after death and a sense of equality. That it didn’t matter if you were jew or gentile, you can all eat at the same table. To me, it looks like someone who opened a church in the south saying its ok for blacks and whites to worship together.
First of all, I believe that God is all-good and that He is not the author of sin. If He was the author of it, man wouldn't be punish for it in the first place. He allowed it to exist in order to manifest Himself to his people. He can control it or he can allow it as we can see in the Bible but He did not create it. Sin, for me, is still a mystery. Not because I do not understand it, but because I still do not know where it really came from.
I see the words EVIL, BAD, SIN as something that makes us appreciate their counterpart. When we see bad things, we don't like it and that's when we appreciate the good things in life. When we sin, we see our failures and this makes us appreciate that God is there, ready to accept us even though we are sinners.
The 10 commandments did not exist only because we NEED to follow it, it was made by God in order to show people that they CAN'T follow it. You can keep trying to follow it, but you will ALWAYS break one or more, you can never in your life follow ALL of it at once. That's why man cannot save himself, he cannot rely on himself for salvation. He needs someone to save him, someone NOT like him and everyone would agree that only God have this ability (because He is the only one free from sin). We can see in Romans 5:20, "The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more". The more laws God made, the more people sinned and the more we SEE that we are really nothing compared to Him. But we are saved BY His unconditional grace.
So that is why we are given consciousness in the first place, it is in order for people to distinguish the good from bad.
Hal wrote:
The term Lucifer (star of light in Latin) does not appear anywhere in the Tanakh. It is another one of the mistranslations from Hebrew to Greek in the Septuigant. The term is heylel which means morning star.
Technically it isn't a mistranslation Lucifer is the morning star. It is just not a proper noun and as such should not be kept as Lucifer as if it were a proper noun.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
First of all, I believe that God is all-good and that He is not the author of sin. If He was the author of it, man wouldn't be punish for it in the first place. He allowed it to exist in order to manifest Himself to his people. He can control it or he can allow it as we can see in the Bible but He did not create it. Sin, for me, is still a mystery. Not because I do not understand it, but because I still do not know where it really came from.
I see the words EVIL, BAD, SIN as something that makes us appreciate their counterpart. When we see bad things, we don't like it and that's when we appreciate the good things in life. When we sin, we see our failures and this makes us appreciate that God is there, ready to accept us even though we are sinners.
The 10 commandments did not exist only because we NEED to follow it, it was made by God in order to show people that they CAN'T follow it. You can keep trying to follow it, but you will ALWAYS break one or more, you can never in your life follow ALL of it at once. That's why man cannot save himself, he cannot rely on himself for salvation. He needs someone to save him, someone NOT like him and everyone would agree that only God have this ability (because He is the only one free from sin). We can see in Romans 5:20, "The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more". The more laws God made, the more people sinned and the more we SEE that we are really nothing compared to Him. But we are saved BY His unconditional grace.
So that is why we are given consciousness in the first place, it is in order for people to distinguish the good from bad.
Seems more a we won't than we cannot.
renita.payno wrote:
Which is why I wonder if god is satan.
Depending on the meaning of Satan God can be..
1 Chronicles 21:1
“Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel”
2 Samuel 24:1
Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
Depends on what you refer to we "won't" over the we "cannot".
Wow shimon, those are some very strong verses.. alone of course. They same nearly the same thing but one says satan and the other says lord. It looks as though satan could be a representation of the lords anger. But of course someone who believes they are different may say to read the whole chapter or something like that.
It's weird how many people interprets the Bible. I guess you could say there lies the wrong, that people try to "interpret" it. We should treat the Bible like it's a novel that teaches something, with God as the author. Instead of "interpreting" it based on our own ideas or beliefs OR traditions, we should try to understand what it really means. If what you read in the last chapter don't fit the message on the next chapter, that means you misunderstood what you read and you must go over it again because that means you took it "out of its context". There is no contradictions in the bible. You don't have to edit it to fit your belief, you need to edit yourself.
And for those who say that the bible is not enough, then I would just like to suggest that first know the whole Bible content in heart and in mind before you go searching for more. This is what's important, the FOUNDATION. That's why many Christians are deceived because they are still "biblically" blind. There is so much to know in the Bible, you can't read it once, even twice and say "Oh, I know what it means". Knowing and believing in God is receiving milk, reading and learning the Bible's teachings is solid food. So before you go eating other "solid foods", digest the previous first or you'll need medicine for a sour "stomach."
It's weird how many people interprets the Bible. I guess you could say there lies the wrong, that people try to "interpret" it. We should treat the Bible like it's a novel that teaches something, with God as the author. Instead of "interpreting" it based on our own ideas or beliefs OR traditions, we should try to understand what it really means. If what you read in the last chapter don't fit the message on the next chapter, that means you misunderstood what you read and you must go over it again because that means you took it "out of its context". There is no contradictions in the bible. You don't have to edit it to fit your belief, you need to edit yourself.
And for those who say that the bible is not enough, then I would just like to suggest that first know the whole Bible content in heart and in mind before you go searching for more. This is what's important, the FOUNDATION. That's why many Christians are deceived because they are still "biblically" blind. There is so much to know in the Bible, you can't read it once, even twice and say "Oh, I know what it means". Knowing and believing in God is receiving milk, reading and learning the Bible's teachings is solid food. So before you go eating other "solid foods", digest the previous first or you'll need medicine for a sour "stomach."
I have recently left the organization and have no words to describe how I feel about the whole experience. I am so angry at God, angry at the world, angry at myself and the entire situation just frustrates me. I quit school and now my family blame me for everything. I used to preach "the end of the world" to them and I took drastic and uninformed desicions. My entire life changed completely. I'm trying to move past this, trying to take my life back but it's just so hard because I have no idea how I'm gonna go on with my life now. I feel like God failed me because they all couldn't have found me at a better time. I was at my weakest and I feel like that was an advantage to the church. I was so excited to have finally found the ''perfect truth'' and because I could understand the Bible better…I am soo angry I just wanna die!!! The mistreatment I received from the leaders of the church. I thought it was all my fault and was repenting for things I didn't even do…mxm! Please, if anyone was there for a reasonably long amount of time (a former member), like maybe a year or so, please email me @ [email protected] or just leave your email address on the forum so we can chat. I'm still at loss and in confusion. I need answers
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