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It only applies if virginity is claimed
Simon wrote:
It only applies if virginity is claimed
There is nothing in there to make that qualification. Besides, it clearly blames the woman for promiscuity before her marriage. Not for lying about her virginity.
You commit as much context removal as wmscog there would be no reason for a bride price and a virgin bride price if non virgins cv ouldnt marry and they wouldn’t be able to marry if they were to be stoned to death for it
The fact is you believe it to be sin so you are cherry picking to prove it.
Its no different from when I found proof of god the mother and ahnsahnghong studying alone because I wanted it and believed it to be there
Simon wrote:
You commit as much context removal as wmscog there would be no reason for a bride price and a virgin bride price if non virgins cv ouldnt marry and they wouldn't be able to marry if they were to be stoned to death for it
The fact is you believe it to be sin so you are cherry picking to prove it.
Its no different from when I found proof of god the mother and ahnsahnghong studying alone because I wanted it and believed it to be there
Can you explain where the scripture makes a distinction between non-virgin bride price and virgin bride price? I am not aware of it. I have seen Ex 22:16-17 which is very similar to Deut 22:28-29. It only mentions bride price for virgins.
Can you explain what the bride price is for as mentioned in Deut 22:28-29? As I understand it, if a man has pre-marital sex with a girl who is not married/betrothed, he is required by law to pay the bride price and marry her. Obviously this is vastly different from the case described in 13-21.
In 28-29, the act is discovered and the punishment meted out resolves the issue adequately for the girl as well (by the standard of that society).
The case of 13-21 is quite different. It is about a girl who is not a virgin and this is discovered immediately after marriage. The implication is that the girl had previously engaged in consensual pre-marital sex (if it was non consensual, the case would be treated differently) with another man which her husband finds objectionable. You might say the wrong done is the non-disclosure of lack of virginity but verse 21 doesn't say that.
I believe the bride price for virgins is specifically mentioned in the verses above to distinguish it from someone who is marrying a widow as in the case of Boaz. So if indeed there is a non-virgin bride price, it is not necessary that it is meant for those who enganged in pre-marital sex.
You could try proving your point with your own verses of relevant scripture rather than dismissing my proof as cherry picking.
YoMomma SoFat wrote:
There's a verse, that I can't find but remember reading, that says you have to genuinely TRY to follow all the rules. We all know actions speak louder than words.. The WMSCOG says you have to try. But whenever something bad happens (car accident, lost important paperwork, etc.) they blame your shortcomings. If you believe that an unfavorable event happened because you skipped a preaching meeting or haven't bore fruit etc. then you'll believe that you must follow all rules to the T to be blessed. The WMSCOG is sneaky (much like the military). They SAY certain things to cover their arse but push you through their actions or other sayings to make you believe something different.
Yes, we should be trying to live in a way that pleases God, but because we are human we can't even TRY perfectly. You know… the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and all that, like Romans 7. So if you base your salvation on "genuinely trying to follow all the rules" you will still fail.
I could totally see them saying that anything bad happening is your fault because you haven't obeyed right.
Emil and Simon, you guys seem to be going in circles.
Do I remember right that the conversation started because of the idea that Ahn and his wife may not have been officially married before having children? And the question was then, if that was so, would it have meant that Ahn sinned by fornication?
I think it is covered by "sexual immorality," but whatever you or I think, it might be more useful to go back to looking at what the wmscog thinks about fornication. How does he fare judging him by the wmscog's own standards?
By both bible and wmscog standards as taught here it wouldn’t be sin
@Genny – You are right. That was the origin of this debate as well as the fact that Ahn can be judged by what his own church teaches. Simon says I am taking Dt 22:21 out of context. I would like an explanation for that verse within whatever context shows that pre-marital sex is not a sin. That is not forthcoming.You can’t fail at trying. If your goal is to try, and you tried, then you’ve succeeded. If your goal to be perfect, and you tried, then you’ve failed (because, like you said, No one is perfect). But you can never fail at being genuine. Either you are or you aren’t. And you can never fail at making an effort. Either you try or you don’t.
I already demonstrated the cultural context the fact is you accept it cuz you were taught it was sin no reason further
YoMomma SoFat wrote:
You can't fail at trying. If your goal is to try, and you tried, then you've succeeded. If your goal to be perfect, and you tried, then you've failed (because, like you said, No one is perfect). But you can never fail at being genuine. Either you are or you aren't. And you can never fail at making an effort. Either you try or you don't.
I disagree. I mean, yes being genuine is important–the heart matters. But you can fail at making an effort. Unless something physically gets in your way (like getting in a car crash on the way to church), if you try but fail, there's always the question, "Could you have tried harder?" How do you know if you have tried hard enough to satisfy the requirement of "trying to follow all the rules"?
I don't remember what prompted this part of the conversation, but I'm finding it real interesting. 🙂 Maybe we should make it another thread.
You tried to go preaching more but crashed on the way. There was still an effort. Trying harder, ok. But in order to try harder you have to have tried initially.
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