- CreatorTopic
- January 2, 2014 at 1:29 AM#7520
- January 24, 2014 at 11:13 PM #65677
gennyParticipantHey Simon and Emil. I've been following your conversation. While I consider premarital sex as immoral (and unwise), you've made me wonder what orthodox Judaism would say about it, so I looked it up at the Jewish Virtual Library, and here's what it says:
Many people are surprised to learn that the Torah does not prohibit premarital sex. I challenge you to find any passage in the Jewish scriptures that forbits a man from having consensual sexual relations with any woman he could legally marry. It's just not there!
Nor is there any passage that requires a man to marry a woman after having consensual sexual relations with her. The passage forcing a man to marry the woman deals with rape (the man seizes her). It says nothing about consensual relations. Some say that consensual sexual relations create a common law marriage, which can only be dissolved through divorce, though the law on this point is not clear.
This is not to suggest that Judaism approves of pre-marital sex or promiscuity. Quite the contrary: traditional Judaism strongly condemns the irresponsibility of sex outside of marriage. It is considered to be improper and immoral, even though it is not technically a sin. In fact, to prevent such relations, Jewish law prohibits an unmarried, unrelated man and woman from being alone long enough to have sexual relations. But these laws come from the Talmud and the Shulchan Aruch, not from the Torah.
Thought you'd find it interesting too, so I'm sharing. 🙂
January 24, 2014 at 11:22 PM #65678
gennyParticipantYoMomma SoFat wrote:
Yes they would because God's command is above all things. They use the example of Abraham sacrificing Isaac. He loved him but because God said to kill him he was going to obey God over his emotions.
I don't think I'm the only one who considers the Abraham/Isaac incident a one time deal. You could certainly say that Abraham, as the father of the Jewish nation, was a special case. What would we say about anyone today who claimed that God told them to kill their child? (I'd say they might need psychiatric help.)
I think this would be a case of the wmscog putting the priority on the ceremonial law (their interpretations of them at least… fasting, sabbath, etc), over the moral law (take care of your family and don't get the rest of the church sick). Would that be because their salvation is based on keeping (their) ceremonial laws?
January 25, 2014 at 2:34 AM #65679
Love'n HoneyParticipantSalvation is only given to those who try to follow all of God’s commands.
January 25, 2014 at 3:23 AM #65680
gennyParticipantYoMomma SoFat wrote:
Salvation is only given to those who try to follow all of God's commands.
Aaaah. So will they ever give an itemized list of all those commands? Otherwise, how can someone know if they are following them?
January 25, 2014 at 5:24 AM #65681
SimonParticipantAs a jew (also as a christian) I reject orthodox doctrine as blasphemous although I agree with them on some things
But then there are areas we agree with wmscog too not because they are good interpreters but because even liars can be right by chance or even to serve their lies
January 27, 2014 at 4:31 AM #65682
emilParticipantYoMomma SoFat wrote:
Salvation is only given to those who try to follow all of God's commands.
Not sure if that is your opinion or you are just quoting the wmscog. Paul would disagree and say, "Jesus' sacrifice would be useless." Fact is, he actually did reply that way.
January 27, 2014 at 4:03 PM #65683
SimonParticipantDisobedience is never endorced either
January 28, 2014 at 5:46 AM #65684
emilParticipantSimon wrote:
Disobedience is never endorced either
Correct. I was only pointing out the conditional nature "only given to those" because that means we did not need the new covenant at all.
January 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM #65685
emilParticipantAnd Genny is right about the itemized list. I have been told numerous times how we need to follow Christ's commands and when I respond with, "Give me the list of Christ's commands" all I get is a deafening silence.
January 28, 2014 at 7:31 PM #65686
The ChiveParticipantgenny wrote:
YoMomma SoFat wrote:
Salvation is only given to those who try to follow all of God's commands.
Aaaah. So will they ever give an itemized list of all those commands? Otherwise, how can someone know if they are following them?
No because its a pick and choose with the WMSCOG (and to an extent all of Christianity) in determining which commands we need to live by and the others are considered "null and void".
January 28, 2014 at 8:17 PM #65687
Love'n HoneyParticipantYou learn as you go. It’s like raising children. I don’t have a list of rules at the house but my daughter still knows what the rules are. There are rules that I haven’t told her about because she hasn’t trespassed. When she does (or if there’s a possibility she will) I will tell her.
January 28, 2014 at 10:12 PM #65688
gennyParticipantThe Chive wrote:
genny wrote:
YoMomma SoFat wrote:
Salvation is only given to those who try to follow all of God's commands.
Aaaah. So will they ever give an itemized list of all those commands? Otherwise, how can someone know if they are following them?
No because its a pick and choose with the WMSCOG (and to an extent all of Christianity) in determining which commands we need to live by and the others are considered "null and void".
The difference is that Christianity does not say you must obey all God's commands to be saved.
YoMomma SoFat wrote:
You learn as you go. It's like raising children. I don't have a list of rules at the house but my daughter still knows what the rules are. There are rules that I haven't told her about because she hasn't trespassed. When she does (or if there's a possibility she will) I will tell her.
That's a good analogy. But she doesn't have to worry about following all the rules to stay (or become) your daughter, right? Would you still love and accept her as your daughter even if she were terrible at following the rules? Thinking of my own kids, I would say yes. They became my children first, and it is unconditional on whether or not they are good at keeping my rules, though of course they should follow the rules (which are for their benefit). I don't have a complete list of house rules either, but they know the guidelines of how our home works and can figure out whether or not their behavior would be acceptable.
Think of a roommate situation. If following all the rules of the house was a condition of remaining in the house, it would only be fair if those rules were clearly posted. Then they know if they are in any danger of being kicked out.
January 28, 2014 at 11:07 PM #65689
OmerParticipantI hope I am not going out on a limb but here is my intake and I will try to keep it as short as possible;
It all depends how you see the Bible. By all means, it is not an encyclopedia. If you see an implication of certain act being misdemeanor then you got your answer. Hence the saying; if it walks like a dog, barks like a dog then it is a dog. If WE try to explain the Bible in our own understanding, I don’t think we would be on the same page ever. In the Bible, all is NOT meant to be understood as we read. Keep in mind, the holy book is divinely inspired. We are not to interpret nor come up with a conclusion but only follow to our best intention. In other words, you pick the right denomination in your best understanding with NO REASONABLE DOUBT; therefore, you follow as it is represented and taught. Nevertheless, one should read the holy as they are pleased. Yet, one ought to leave it at that… We start playing divine individuals then we all should be entitled to start our own church. Hence WMS… It is one of the reasons why we are against WMS’s teachings since they blow versus out of proportion, distort it to their gain and spread their plague to the society, etc.
January 29, 2014 at 12:39 AM #65690
SimonParticipantAll denoms have reasonable doubt
January 29, 2014 at 1:16 AM #65691
OmerParticipantThat's an overstatement, yet I agree to disagree…
January 29, 2014 at 3:01 AM #65692
Love'n HoneyParticipantTrue.. Even if Anaya broke all the rules on a regular basis I would still consider her my daughter and make sure I take good care of her. I’m pretty sure.. Lol.
January 29, 2014 at 3:07 AM #65693
Love'n HoneyParticipantThere’s a verse, that I can’t find but remember reading, that says you have to genuinely TRY to follow all the rules. We all know actions speak louder than words.. The WMSCOG says you have to try. But whenever something bad happens (car accident, lost important paperwork, etc.) they blame your shortcomings. If you believe that an unfavorable event happened because you skipped a preaching meeting or haven’t bore fruit etc. then you’ll believe that you must follow all rules to the T to be blessed. The WMSCOG is sneaky (much like the military). They SAY certain things to cover their arse but push you through their actions or other sayings to make you believe something different.
January 29, 2014 at 3:20 AM #65694
Love'n HoneyParticipant2 Peter 3:14
January 29, 2014 at 11:48 AM #65695
emilParticipant
@Genny – I have been thinking over what you posted about pre-marital sex according to the Jewish Virtual Library. I am not much into the distinctions between the Torah and other laws but I assume that Deuteronomy as part of the Pentateuch, is firmly within the Torah.Looking at Dt 22:21 in the context of the verses beginning from 13, it appears that the husband in this case has accused the wife of not being a virgin.
First of all, it appears that the onus of proof of virginity is on the wife and her family rather than the husband needing to prove that she wasn't a virgin. Grossly unfair by modern standards but let us keep that aside for the purpose of this discussion.
Secondly, it begs the question, "What could have made the woman lose her virginity?" The verse clearly says that she is stoned to death because she has done an outrageous thing by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. All this points to pre-marital sex.
Am I to understand that there are actions that the Jews do not consider sin and yet worthy of stoning to death?
January 29, 2014 at 6:16 PM #65696
SimonParticipantNo omer it’s a fact
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