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[Originally posted by Adam on August 1, 2011 5:57 PM under No Salvation Through Any Other Name and moved by admin to Forum]
Isa 43:11 says there is no other Savior apart from Jehovah. Joel 2:32 refreshes this fact. Therefor, according to your human logic, we cannot be saved in the name of Jesus. Oh wait, Jesus is the name we are saved by after Jesus came. Hmm John16:24 Jesus says, “Until now you haven’t prayed in my name…” This indicates when Jesus came, the name of the savior changed because people were profaning the name Jehovah. It is the same now. There are people named jesus, and the name is tossed around like trash. Jesus even said he is coming with a new name rev3:12. I am starting to doubt you even went to the church as you haven’t studied savior of each age. Are you sure you just didn’t look online and make up your own opinions?
Why is it that everytime someone disagrees with a member of the WMSCOG, the person is accused of "having their own opinions" or "using their own thoughts" or "using their own mind"? Do you have to be brain dead to believe the doctrine? Just so you know, the Moonies have been using the same "new name" argument for years before Ahnsahnghong's church existed. Does this argument prove anything? If this "new name" argument proves that Ahnsahnghong is the second coming of Jesus, then it proves that SunMyungMoon is the second coming of Jesus too.
I understand that you feel that you have to defend the choice you have made to remain a member of this group, despite its many faults and contradictions. You have committed, invested time, and money. Like many other wmscog members, you probably have cut your family and friends off because they refuse to join the church with you. Do you think that you will ever be able to put your pride aside and admit that you were wrong if one day you realized that you may have made a mistake? Or would you stay in the group regardless of the hypocrisy and lies because of your ego? Do you think that you would have joined the WMSCOG if you knew then what you know now? Would you choose the yoke of slavery that you are now bound under? Please answer this honestly if you are able to. Please no "righteous lies".
What about Isa 43:10-11? There is no savior before OR AFTER God the Father. The claim that you are making is one that Jews would have made against the Christians.
Isaiah 43:10-11 does not mention Jehovah's name. So there is no savior other than The God Almighty. Jesus and the Father are one. John 10:30.
I agree with Emily. Isaiah 43:10-11 says:
“You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,
“ And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
I, even I, am the LORD,
And besides Me there is no savior."
There is no other savior besides God. Jesus is God. He is not a different savior.
It also says that there is only ONE God, and there never has been any other God. This definitely does not fit with the wmscog doctrine of two gods.
God says that there is NO OTHER GOD but Him.
The wmscog says there are two gods, a father and a mother.
Both cannot be true at the same time. Which is lying? (Or if it sounds better to you, which has made a mistake?)
I'm sure you do agree with Emily. I would rather agree with the Bible though. Why donnt you agree with the Bible? (im just joking). So Joel 2:32 says we are saved by calling upon the Name of the Lord. In the age of the Father, what was the name of the Lord? It wasnt Jesus. But in acts and romans the Bible says we are saved by calling upon the Name of the Lord. What was the name of the Lord in the age of the son? It's not the same name as in the age of the Father. In each age, there was a different name for the Lord, our savior.
It is the same now. Ahnsahng and Jesus are one and the same God. Ahnsahng is not a different savior, just the new name of the Savior, just like Jesus was the new Name of the Lord in the age of the Son.
Ha, ha. ๐ I agree with the Bible, of course.
You didn't answer my question about who is lying (or mistaken) regarding whether there is one God or two. So what about you, ChildOfZion, do you agree with Is. 43:10-11 (there is only one God) or with the wmscog (there are two gods)?
About the names, God is referred to by many names and titles in the Bible, not just two (Jehovah and Jesus), and I'm sure you already know that. Why, would you say, there are so many names and titles of God in the Bible? Would you say that one particular name of God is more able to save than another? For example, if I were living in Old Testament times, would it make a difference whether I called on the name of Jehovah or El Shaddai or Adonai? Would He only listen to me if I prayed to "Jehovah" but not if I prayed to "El Shaddai" or "Adonai"?
To Genny. There is only One God, Elohim. What happens when a man and a woman become husband and wife? They become one flesh. Really? If you are married or know anyone who is married, you know husbands and wives are not literally one. They quite often have no idea what the other is thinking. It is not a physical meaning then, but a spiritual meaning. God the Father and God the Mother are One God, God Elohim. The copy of God the Father and Mother (Elohim), Adam and Eve were said to be "One Flesh." Elohim is the One True God,
You can see this clearly in Genesis 1:26-27. God Elohim said, Let Us.. Our Image, Our Likeness. From God's image came male and female. The copy of God Elohim was male and female. Then what is the original image? We can understand easily through the copy. This is the most conviencing for me. We know it's not referring to the Trinity b/c, as you all have already stated, Jesus IS Jehovah.
Have you ever been a member of wmscog Genny?
ChildOfZion wrote:
There is only One God, Elohim. What happens when a man and a woman become husband and wife? They become one flesh.
So you believe that God was married in heaven? I thought that there was no marriage in heaven. Matthew 22:30 What is the "spiritual meaning" to Adam and Eve being one flesh? I'm pretty sure that their isn't any flesh in heaven either.
ChildOfZion wrote:
You can see this clearly in Genesis 1:26-27. God Elohim said, Let Us.. Our Image, Our Likeness. From God's image came male and female. The copy of God Elohim was male and female. Then what is the original image? We can understand easily through the copy. This is the most conviencing for me.
The animals were created before Adam and Eve and they were also made male and female, but the Bible doesn't say that they were made in God's image does it?
Have you read this article? It pretty much sums it up.
Also if you think that marriage has a spiritual meaning, does divorce have one too? If so, what would that be?
Actually Emily, I did not say there was marriage in Heaven. Please quote me where I did say that. I did not say there is flesh in heaven either. Please quote me where I did say that.
I was not quoting you, I was simply asking the questions. I will explain why I have these questions. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just trying to understand your points. The wmscog says that marriage on earth is a shadow of the reality in heaven right? Because you say that when a couple marries on earth they become one flesh and therefore you conclude that the two gods you believe in are really one right? I'm not clear on how that works if there is no marriage or flesh in heaven. How can marriage on earth be a shadow of a reality in heaven that doesn't exist there?
You are not trying to understand. Let's all be honest with ourselves here. This is a website dedicated to saying we are a cult, that we are liers and we are brainwashed. You have made it clear that you already believe that. Nothing we say or show you would convience you otherwise.
So since there is no spiritual meaning to Adam and Eve being one flesh, one body, were they physically one body and one flesh? They were in each other's skin? Why do you insist that there must be flesh in the kingdom of heaven? This is a silly and absurd arguement for you to make.
As to there not being a wedding in the kingdom of heaven Rev 19:7 The wedding of the Lamb has come. Is it a physical wedding?
For some reason, you do not believe that the Bible is a spiritual book.
First of all, I never called you a liar and never said that you were brainwashed. I don't know you. Please quote me where I did say that.
Why must you resort to saying things like silly and absurd? Can we be objective? I am only asking you to draw a clear connection with the copy and shadow as you mentioned earlier.
I do believe that the Bible is full of spiritual meaning. But we should still be able to connect the dots as they say. So you believe that the wedding banquet is a ceremony for Ahnsahnghong and who? Zhanggiljah? I thought they were already "spiritually married".
"Do you have to be brain dead to believe the doctrine" This is one of your statemets from another post.. Why must you resort to calling us braindead? Cant we be objective? You are very mean and hateful. You act like calling your statement silly and absurd is wrong, but you are calling us braindead. You are a hyporcrite.
So again I will ask you again in Rev 19:7 The wedding of the Lamb has come. Is it a physical wedding?
And in Gen 2:24 Adam and Even were one flesh. Were the physically one flesh? B/c I'm pretty sure that they were two different people.
You are write I did say that but it was in response to a comment from someone else. I was pointing out how his response was an empty one. So please do not take my statements out of context. I am not a hypocrite. Yet still if I offended you somehow, I deeply apologize.
I agree with you that the reference to a wedding in Revelation 19:7 is a figurative one. My question to you is who is getting married?
Yes Adam and Eve were two different people. What does it mean to you to be one flesh with your spouse?
Hi, ChildOfZion. No I have not been a member of the wmscog, but I have studied with my sister and others. How long have you been a member?
You said,
What happens when a man and a woman become husband and wife? They become one flesh. Really? If you are married or know anyone who is married, you know husbands and wives are not literally one. They quite often have no idea what the other is thinking. It is not a physical meaning then, but a spiritual meaning.
There is a physical meaning to husband and wife becoming one flesh. It's pretty clear to me what it's talking about. And a result of that 'becoming one flesh' can also be described as one flesh made from two–a baby. There is both an emotional and a physical bond beween husband and wife.
You said "Elohim is the One True God." But really the wmscog teaches TWO gods. So which is it, one god or two? Can you explain that better because it sounds like you can't make up your mind whether there are one or two.
Emily brought up a valid point–if humans being made in the "image of God" refers to maleness and femaleness, what about the animals that also are male and female–are they made in the image of God as well? I'd like to hear what you have to say about that.
Also, you didn't address my other question, and I'd like to know what you think about that too. I'll just copy it here:
Why are there so many names and titles of God in the Bible? Would you say that one particular name of God is more able to save than another? For example, if I were living in Old Testament times, would it make a difference whether I called on the name of Jehovah or El Shaddai or Adonai? Would He only listen to me if I prayed to "Jehovah" but not if I prayed to "El Shaddai" or "Adonai"?
Thank you for taking the time to talk with me. Even if you or I do not change our minds, these conversations do help us all understand each other better.
@ChildOfZion Here is a list for the names of the Holy Spirit:http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Holy_Spirit/holy_spirit.html
Sorry to say this but you have been fooled by some false prophets. You should share this with your other members.
EMILY
- The animals were created before Adam and Eve and they were also made male and female, but the Bible doesn't say that they were made in God's image does it?
God said Let Us… Our Image… Our likeness… God almighty is plural. How many sides are there to a coin? 2. But there is only one coin. Why is everything male and felmale,? Who made it that way? Is this not the will of God? The Bible Does say that Adam and Eve are the copy of the image of God. Through Adam and Eve we can understand many things, including the divine nature of God. Romans 1:19 tells us through everything God created, even animals, we can understand the divine nature of God. Everything that has been given life received that life from their father and mother. It is the same with our spirit.
The wmscog says that marriage on earth is a shadow of the reality in heaven right?
No the Bible says in Matthew 22:1-10. The kingdom of heaven IS Like a wedding.
Rev 19:7- In the last days the Bride makes Herself ready. When does a bride appear in an earthly wedding? At the beginning or end?
Because you say that when a couple marries on earth they become one flesh and therefore you conclude that the two gods you believe in are really one right? I'm not clear on how that works if there is no marriage or flesh in heaven. How can marriage on earth be a shadow of a reality in heaven that doesn't exist there?
I’m sorry you cannot understand. Man cannot reveal the Truth to you, only God can.
If you start attaching "sprititual" meanings to everything, you can make the verses mean anything you want. That would in no way be productive
I do believe that the Bible is full of spiritual meaning.
Which one is it? It’s full of spiritual meaning or is it not? It’s hard to speak with you if you are going back and forth on your statements.
Can someone who does not show love but contempt for their neighbor (this includes people inside and outside of the (YOUR CHURCH HERE) Do you have to be brain dead to believe the doctrine? You are write I did say that but it was in response to a comment from someone else.
So? Who are you to judge that person? Are YOU the judge? So is that love you are showing to someone who does not agree with you. Also, you said brain dead to believe the doctrine, not about his comment. You do not show the love that you tell us we are not showing. You have judged yourself.
Genny
No I have not been a member of the wmscog …the wmscog teaches TWO gods.
If you’re not a member, nor ever been one, how can you say clearly what is taught? My understanding of Elohim God is that elohim is the true creator. Elohim is the One true God that made the heavens and the earth. How can I, an imperfect being understand the perfect being? The only way possible to even try and attempt to understand the divine nature of God is through God’s creation, b/c God’s will is contained in all of creation. When we look at the Elohim’s creation, all living creatures were created male and female. When Elohim created Adam and Eve, Elohim let us know that the image and likeness of Elohim was used. And out came Adam and Eve.
When you read about Adam and Eve, clearly they are two deifferent people or entities. But the scripture teaches us that they became one flesh, meaning they became one entity (clearly it does not mean one actual physical body). In the same way that Adam and Eve were said to be one, God the Father and God the Mother can be One God.
- Why are there so many names and titles of God in the Bible? Would you say that one particular name of God is more able to save than another? For example, if I were living in Old Testament times, would it make a difference whether I called on the name of Jehovah or El Shaddai or Adonai? Would He only listen to me if I prayed to "Jehovah" but not if I prayed to "El Shaddai" or "Adonai"?
The name of God in the old testament time was used much differently than it was in the New Testament time. The Jews used the Name of God (Yahweh) with the upmost reverence.
Adonai simply means “my lord” and El Shaddai translate to God Almighty. Both are titles, and not the Name of God.
Oscar
You truly do not know the scriptures or the power of God’s Mighty Name. Those are all titles of God, not His Holy Name.
If you’re not a member, nor ever been one, how can you say clearly what is taught?
Because the church website, member blogs, and members themselves in direct conversation (in person and online) all have explained to me what the wmscog teaches. If Ahnsahnghong, Zahng Gil Jah, or Kim Joo Cheol are not Catholic, nor have ever been Catholic, how can they clearly say what is taught by the Catholic Church?
Would you please share, how long have you been a member of the wmscog? How did you get involved? Did you have a background of faith (of any kind) before becoming involved in the wmscog? It would be nice to know you better.
Continuing on…
I was clearly told (in person) that the wmscog believes in two gods. That is why I can clearly say that they teach this.
My understanding of Elohim God is that elohim is the true creator. Elohim is the One true God that made the heavens and the earth. … God the Father and God the Mother can be One God.
If you believe in one God this way, then it sounds like you do not actually believe in two gods, but a two-in-one god. That is similar to the 3-in-1 God, the Trinity, that traditional Christianity teaches, which is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each distinct, yet only one God. Only in your case it would be father and mother, each distinct, yet only one god. Except that I was clearly told by others that the wmscog teaches they are two separate gods. If I have misunderstood you, maybe you can try explaining it a little differently.
When you read about Adam and Eve, clearly they are two deifferent people or entities. But the scripture teaches us that they became one flesh, meaning they became one entity (clearly it does not mean one actual physical body).
There is a physical aspect to Adam and Eve becoming one. Maybe you missed that in my previous response? I'll copy it again for your convenience.
There is a physical meaning to husband and wife becoming one flesh. It's pretty clear to me what it's talking about. And a result of that 'becoming one flesh' can also be described as one flesh made from two–a baby. There is both an emotional and a physical bond beween husband and wife.
The name of God in the old testament time was used much differently than it was in the New Testament time. The Jews used the Name of God (Yahweh) with the upmost reverence.
Adonai simply means “my lord” and El Shaddai translate to God Almighty. Both are titles, and not the Name of God.
Yes, YHWH was considered by the Jews the most special name for God. But it is also another name that indicates God's character. It is related to the verb "to be" and speaks of the transcendence and being and eternal-ness of God. That's why when Moses asked for God's name, God replied, “'I AM WHO I AM.' And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” " (Ex. 3:14)
Here's something interesting…
Ex. 6:3 "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I was not known to them."
The wmscog teaches that the name of the savior in the age of the Father was Jehovah (translated LORD). What was the age and name of the savior before that? In Ex. 6:3 we see that the name LORD was not known until Moses' time–Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did not know that name. Were they able to be saved? By what name? What was that age?
Because the church website, member blogs, and members themselves in direct conversation (in person and online) all have explained to me what the wmscog teaches. If Ahnsahnghong, Zahng Gil Jah, or Kim Joo Cheol are not Catholic, nor have ever been Catholic, how can they clearly say what is taught by the Catholic Church?
Point well recieved.
Genesis 4:26. At that time people began to call upon the Name of the Lord.
From the very beginning we can see that God’s people called on His Name. If you really would like to learn more about this subject, please come study with us.
I can see why members of the CoG don’t come on the internet, we spend a week going back and forth about one or two subjects, really nothing has been accomplished. The only time I have to discuss things on here is on my lunch break, and quite frankly I can spend my time more productively, I would rather enjoy my lunch. Ecc 3:1, there is a time for everything right, and now is the time to stop trying to convince you and anyone on here of anything.
If anyone has questions about the Bible and would like to know what we truly believe, please come and study with us. Anyone can say anything on the internet, regardless if it is true or not. They brought flase witnesses to bring flase testimony against Christ 2000 years ago.
Jn5:39- The Bible does not say you diligently google search the internet for salvation.
By the way Genny, you are the only one on this forum worth talking to.
Genesis 4:26. At that time people began to call upon the Name of the Lord.
From the very beginning we can see that God’s people called on His Name.
Yes they did "call upon the Name of the Lord," but the wmscog teaches that the name of God has changed throughout time. Since Ex. 6:3 says, "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I was not known to them," wouldn't you say that the name of the Lord before Moses was not Jehovah? If it was, then Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would surely have known it, wouldn't they? What name do you think they were calling on in Genesis since the name Jehovah was not known?
If you really would like to learn more about this subject, please come study with us…. If anyone has questions about the Bible and would like to know what we truly believe, please come and study with us.
I have tried this, but it doesn't work any better. It only means I get to experience frustration in person rather than through the screen. The last time I tried studying with a wmscog member in person, after a while she didn't want to use up her time with me in person anymore, then carried on the conversation by email for a little while longer before she quit. (And she told me I should go online for more information!) Unfortunately her frustrations came out in emails laced with animosity, degradation, and insults, no matter how calm and friendly I tried to be. So you see, if you all don't like talking to me in person or online, then I might as well be comfy on my sofa.
I can see why members of the CoG don’t come on the internet, we spend a week going back and forth about one or two subjects, really nothing has been accomplished. The only time I have to discuss things on here is on my lunch break, and quite frankly I can spend my time more productively, I would rather enjoy my lunch. Ecc 3:1, there is a time for everything right, and now is the time to stop trying to convince you and anyone on here of anything.
I, too, often think of many other things I'd rather be doing than spending my time writing online about the wmscog. But I do it because that's what God has placed in my lap, and I wish to obey God. And He has blessed me for it after all, even if my sister remains with the wmscog.
This going back and forth actually does accomplish something, though it may be hard to see if your only purpose is trying to convince me of anything. I learned long ago that it's not within my personal power to convince you or any other wmscog members of anything–that will only happen by the power of God with your own cooperation. So I changed my perspective and purpose.
"Convincing you" is not my primary purpose here. It's to understand better what the wmscog teaches and why; to explain to readers how it is different from mainstream Christianity; and to expose inconsistencies and fallacies that may not be readily apparent. If that results in people leaving the wmscog (or fewer people joining), then I say praise God for that!
So you may be happier if you change your perspective from trying to convince me to trying to understand me and trying to help me understand you.
They brought flase witnesses to bring flase testimony against Christ 2000 years ago.
Again, please stop using the '2000 years ago' argument. It serves no purpose but to avoid the main point. Anyone can use that, but it doesn't prove anything. (for example, "People didn't believe Jesus 2000 years ago, and they didn't believe Joseph Smith either, and they killed him too.")
Jn5:39- The Bible does not say you diligently google search the internet for salvation.
Clever. ๐ But people do search the internet for information, and that's the reality. There is both good and bad information on the internet. We have to pray for discernment and exercise due diligence.
By the way Genny, you are the only one on this forum worth talking to.
Well thank you, ChildOfZion. I find you worthwhile to talk to also.
I've known the others here for some time, and they are good people, but it's easy to let our frustrations get the better of us. (It happens to you and me too. ๐ And I'm sure you would tell me the same thing regarding all those other wmscog members I've talked to who have yelled at me and insulted me, that they're really just frustrated good people, right?
This is a good time to remind us all to keep our conversations respectful.
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