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Hi, all. I've been asked a question by someone researching the wmscog, and I'm not quite sure on the answer for this one. I have an impression from how members speak of 'father' and 'mother' and from what I've read in sermons, but I don't recall it specifically addressed, and I want to see if my impression is backed up by what you all have heard.
Members / ex-members especially, can you help?
Here's the question:
Do they teach that God the Mother is limited ONLY as the physical manifestation of Jang Gil-ja, or if she is in fact in Heaven and on Earth simultaneously?
Same question about Ahnsahnghong: Was the fullness of God the Father ONLY in his body at the time Ahnsahnghong was living, or was the Father in Heaven able to manifest himself as Ahnsahnghong while remaining in heaven at the same time?
mikeforster06 wrote:
Thank you for your information so far.
So it appears that the WMSCOG's teachings are not uniform.
However, based on what a few of you said, Ahn Sahng-hong (deceased) and Jang Gil-ja are supposed to be physically manifest on earth, while remaining distinct in some manner from their physical bodies by remaining in heaven.
This is probably the only defensible position anyway. Being manifest in bodily form alone would create more problems for their theology.
I ordered a few of their books off Amazon, but won’t receive them for a while. Hopefully, I can find some concrete material from their head pastor in those books, but I will not be surprised if each is 300 pages of fluff.
I have already submitted the research paper on the WMSCOG; however, I am continuing work on the project so that I can use it here in Korea. I have also started working on some pamphlets combatting some of their basic arguments.
No and that's a huge red flag. You can see in the Scripture that every Israelite nation in the old and the new testament were told to keep the same law. Therefore, you should find uniformity amongst them. That's not the case with the WMSCOG
Additionally, within Korea, the WMSCOG is pretty obscure. Most Koreans have no idea who they are. If they do know, they think they are just religious people. If they are Christian and informed, they regard this sect as heretical and embarrassing.
@mikefoster I wonder if they keep stuck a low key, to keep Zang’s past a secret(even though much is out). Right beforebI came out, I started to find that the “rules” are different in Korea, for WMS members, so this doesn’t surprise me.
@Untouchable: How are the rules different in Korea? I think the rules are different in the states too for some people, based on how much they contribute to the Wms.
mikeforster06 wrote:
Additionally, within Korea, the WMSCOG is pretty obscure. Most Koreans have no idea who they are. If they do know, they think they are just religious people. If they are Christian and informed, they regard this sect as heretical and embarrassing.
Pretty much what my Korean friends have said too, although WMSCOG in South Korea is continuing to grow. But like the Unification church, which WMSCOG emulates, the real money is in the USA, Japan, and Europe. They recently had some bad press in South Korea about a guy who committed suicide because his wife joined WMSCOG.
So sad that a suicide would be what it takes to get people in the press to take notice. That could very well happen here, too, considering how devastated family members are.
@Mountain I’vr heard that in Korea, members don’t stay between services. They aren’t even expected to, and its not even a thought. I have also heard that Korean overseers in Korea,don’t disrespect members, no yelling, etc.
Korea has traditionally followed elements of Buddhism, Shamanism [Korean Shamanism – Muism], and Confucianism simultaneously, though the common folk wouldn't necessarily describe it this way. Confucianism governs social practices, human interactions and leadership hierarchy. Confucianism isn't seen as so much of a religion as it is seen as a system of social behavior. Buddhism has more of ethical/philosophical elements – however spirituality is certainly involved. Buddhism is intertwined with shamanism often. Shamanism is more involved with everyday spirituality.
For immediate needs and personal family issues that needed quick solutions, the local mudang was seen as [and still is] the go-to comforter who could deal with the problems of daily life on the spiritual level. Seeing that the shaman is usually a woman [mudang], you can begin to see the deep-seated need for traditional Koreans to have a comforting female image along with the God the Father.
Regarding actual beliefs and spirituality, Korean Christianity is more influenced by traditional Korean shamanism or sometimes called Muism. There are not necessarily direct correlations between Shamanism and Korean Christianity, but elements of shamanism have existed in Korean Christianity from the beginning. Shamanism/Muism is ingrained into the culture, though they very rarely talk about it with foreigners. Additionally, average people don't really think about it much, but Korean scholars and theologians certainly harp on it. Separating it from the culture requires time, but according to a recent scholarly article I read, there are more shamans in Korea than pastors [which is impressive]. Additionally, Cho Hung-youn wrote in 2000 that there are approximately 200,000 shamans in South Korea. Link: http://www.koreafocus.or.kr/design1/layout/content_print.asp?group_id=596
Regarding the WMSCOG, Shamanism has a strong influence in my opinion. Especially the need for a gender female deity has strong overtones from role of the mudangin Korean shamanism. A quote fromJeong-sook Kim, a PhD candidate: “other major religions are predominantly males, shamanism though despised and persecuted by both political and religious authorities, stands as the one symbol of female authority and empowerment.” Feminism is growing in Asia, and hasn’t reached as close to its apex as it has in the west. As a result, lot of women are attracted to the WMSCOG in Korea and feel empowered by it. They need to realize that the God the Father is not actual gender male, but described as spirit, transcending simple gender. He is given male modifiers in language to denote role and position, but they took it to understand the Father must be an actual man. They are not alone in that misunderstanding.
Anyway, for those of you who were former members, and especially Korean former members, it may be worthwhile looking into Korean shamanism. It may be purely an academic exercise, and not necessarily useful to non-Koreans. It is also a time consuming process, which is a limited resource.
I would like to post a few pdf’s in relation to this topic, but don’t think it’s possible.
I remember someone on this site referencing hearing a prophecy from Korean WMSCOG leaders regarding Korea's relevance in end times prophecy.
They are almost certainly referring to Revelation 16:12 and Daniel 11:44.
The "kings of the east," or literally, "kings of the sunrise," have been literally called Koreans (and by other Chinese) by some fringe sects in the US.
Additionally, one of the earliest missionary workers in Korea told Koreans something along those lines unfortunately. I cannot recall where I have read that from unfortunately. Who knows, maybe they are. But it is way too speculative to just start naming names.
And yet every place in the world is east of somewhere else so none of that is any proof at all.
Yeah, it hard to say what is meant by "east." That interpretation is based upon east being east of the location of the author. The author is the center, and east extends until it meets west in the center on the opposite side of the earth. It has its problems.
Anything open to interpretation by the Wms is exploited to the fullest to back their agenda, obviously. I know what east is.
Thanks Mr Foster for that input, you 've definately give me more to think about. But in way you've eluded to what I've tried to point out which is that the cult borrows heavliy from Korean tradions and somehow manages to infuse them with the bible and thereby creating a hybrid religion with subtle and sometimes overt traditional Korean undertones.
One instance whereby I felt that ash/kjc borrowed heavily from his Confucianism background was when it was openly satated that we ought to never question our leaders or else terrible things would befall us if we did so. The masters really liked to use the example of how Miriam had received a leprosy because she happened to question Moses marrying an Etheopian wife (Numbers 12) and God punished her. The interpretation for the incident was that because they had "challenged" God's prophet they were punished and therfore if you dared question the leaders that kjc had chosen (be it a pastor or his annoying fishwife) you had questioned God himself and would soon expect punishment in due course. Because I was gulible enough I accepeted this explanation as proof that if you challenged god's/kjc's wisdom you can expect to suffer a fate worse than death. Little did I realise that many things of the bible relied on context and could also be left to any intepretation.
But back to the point, such a tradition of never questioning your leaders is typical of most cultures of the far east. And there was also the theme of filial piety which they would always mention in their sermons and Elohist magazines which reeks of Confucianism and ash his himself would often pay reference to Confuciuos in some of his sermons and that also got me thinking.
These are but a small mention of the other things that I saw which helped me realise that I was not dealing with "kings of the east" but rather bullies with an ego to match. I also witnessed that they treated Koreans with more respect than they did locals and were more open to each other as Koreans that they were with us the locals
For example in late 2012 the pastor in Cape Town had mentioned that "head office" said that folks should prepare emergency packs just in case the world ends in 2012, but as I enquired from the Koreans as to this was actually said by mama z they actually told me that the instruction actually came from the local pastor. That was a red flag (deception; why lie and say that it was head office when its your own opinion?)
Also the Koreans knew about ash and mama z marriage(s) they spoke openly about it amongst themselves but when I enquired from my pastor (after having bee a memeber for 7 years) the pastor blatantly denied that ash and ama z were ever married. Another red flag.
It was these sort of behaviours that made me see that I was actually in a Korean cult and I was being sold dreams, because their behaviours did not resemble those that were "heavenly" in nature. Because I was seeing the deception and a shame culture that had an oppresive heirarchy and most importantly did not resemble the teachings of Christ, because everytime I read the bible and read the things Christ Jesus himself had said about human nature and God they were looking very different from how the cult operated.
Because the cult was very selective when it came to the teachings of Jesus: barring the fig tree, the parable of the talents and the Passover there was little else mentioned about Christ and his teachings. For eaxmple they never preached to the poor nor did they perform any miracles like Christ had done 2000 years ago.
So by focusing on where the biblical teaching (about the feast, mother god and so on) had come from: that is Korea, I was able to be freed from the falsehood.
Filial piety is a big thing here in actual Christian churches as well. Unquestioning obedience to authority is as well. There are some good points, but you are right in that they carry negative things in from Confucianism. Nearly every social structure here, from education to religion, reeks of Confucianism.
After watching sermons and looking through the sermon list on their homepage, I was wondering how much of Bible content they utilize in their teaching. Your post confirms some of what I was assuming.
Do they mostly teach messages that affirm their theology? Or do they depart from it, and teach the rest of the Bible?
Hello Mike, you hit the nail on the head with your question. They do mostly teach messages that back up their theology. When they are asked about things like God being the only God they side step or try and intimidate the person who's making the observation. "Having weak faith" is one of there guilt inducing phrases that they like to use to shut a person down. This doesn't work on people who are wise in the working of the WMS and I doubt you will ever hear that phrase spoken between the Korean members.
I think a proper answer to Mike is that actually no, they do not mostly teach messages that affirm their theology. they ONLY teach selected verses, out of context, distorted and pieced together "randomly", to affirm their theology
Criticism is of questions is a sign of fear, weakness, and laziness to find an answer. They need to work on their Old Testament theology. Their Elohim argument for two gods simply doesn't work like they want it to. When I talk them, I really only stick to their interpretation of God, as everything they believe hinges on it theologically. Additionally, the apologetic I am writing sticks to the defense of the Trinity alone. However, that is because I am trying to keep it under thirty pages. I submitted a paper already, however I am expanding it in a few areas before I have it translated for use it in Korea.
However, as I am learning from the members of this site, information alone has little effect without the grace of God.
When I went in to set up an interview with the pastor in one of their churches in the city in Korea that I live in, the office lady took my number but didn't call back. They don't want to discuss their views unless they think they have the upper hand. I told the office lady I was doing research on their beliefs and wanted to talk to the pastor. She saw my 6 inch binder of paper under my arm and asked if that was my research on their church. It wasn't, and I told her as much. However, she didn't beleive me. She thought I wrote all of that about the WMSCOG, and they were terrified to call me back. I may go back, but after reading about the way the church operates, I seriously doubt they will have an interview with me.
@mikeforester Your right, they only discuss things when it benefits them. If and when it doesn’t (especially from a legal standpoint) they just ignore it. I learned about the “unquestioning” thinking first hand. One Saturday in our old church building, I decided to sit with the children, and help my son read the New Song book and Bible. A Korean deaconess asked (more like suggested), “Brother don’t you want to sit upstairs?” I told her very plainly, “No”. The expression on her face was in awe. I was confused until her husband a deacon told me, “In Korea your really just supposed to do what your asked”. I wanted tell her “This is America” but I didn’t. They also didn’t like that I would correct them on matters of discipline, with my kids. I struggled with the fact that a 23year old who had no kids, or experience with kids…know what’s best for my kids.
In one church a mother objected to her three year old being put in a room alone for fifteen minutes for a "time out" discipline by one of the women they had babysitting. The mother tried to go to the three year old, and the woman stepped between them and said, "She has to learn to be disciplined." When the mother complained, she was told not to come back to the church because she was a troublemaker. There is a lot more to this story, but that is all I will say about this for now.
@Mountain I could see that happening. There were always issues with discipline, etc. There were times where thr Korean deaconness would try to hurry my kids along, when I would speak to them abouy their behavior. Her attitude wad as if she had it under control. I told her sternly one Saturday, “Imtalking to my son, you can take him when I am done.” Again, not to say a person without kids can’t be a good babysitter, but just like any other position, they randomly rotated people in as sitters.
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