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Hi, all. I've been asked a question by someone researching the wmscog, and I'm not quite sure on the answer for this one. I have an impression from how members speak of 'father' and 'mother' and from what I've read in sermons, but I don't recall it specifically addressed, and I want to see if my impression is backed up by what you all have heard.
Members / ex-members especially, can you help?
Here's the question:
Do they teach that God the Mother is limited ONLY as the physical manifestation of Jang Gil-ja, or if she is in fact in Heaven and on Earth simultaneously?
Same question about Ahnsahnghong: Was the fullness of God the Father ONLY in his body at the time Ahnsahnghong was living, or was the Father in Heaven able to manifest himself as Ahnsahnghong while remaining in heaven at the same time?
This is what I learnt
God the Mother definitely exists in Heaven and on Earth simultaneously, as we have learnt in trinity (actually modalism) Jesus and Jehova are the same person. However we can see from Luke 23:34, Jesus is talking to god in heaven. Here he is actually talking to himself, to show us an example (John 13:15) and also to fulfill prophecy (Psalms 22:1) God can do whatever he wants, so it is of no suprise that he can split himself into two, one in heaven one on earth
The fullness of God the Father is not just in the body of ASH, as God can split himself. However Jehova equals Jesus equals ASH
This answer is brought up when a member asked that if let's say we die and go to heaven now, will we see mother in heaven, and the answer is yes
Well.. When you mix the truth with what they're saying, technically YES, Zhang in heaven and on earth; she is in the spiritual and the physical body. HOWEVER.. That's not how the WMSCOG plays it out. In the Heavenly Play, it is shown and said very plainly that Zhang LEFT her thrown in heaven. They also explain this in various bible studies. If this is how it went, then she's no longer in heaven.
They play hard on semantics.. So, semantically speaking, you can't remain in a place that you've left. (Just like you can't go back to a place you've never been.. Ecc 12:7)
That play was funny right? The guy that played Lucifier was amazing. I remember back in 2007 they called us in to watch it for the first time. I believe right after one of the Korea trips. I just couldn't get into it. I actually felt kinda bad during that time period…because inside I was laughing and thinking this is super corny…but members all around me were crying / breaking down. I brought a buddy of mine shortly thereafter and a Deacon put it in for us to watch….needless to say he never came back for anymore studies.
all of this is helpful
but
for those of us on the outside, ever feel like a trial is being held where only one side (their side) gets to present its case since members never give a real chance for us to present alternatives/our side?
that's what gets me so angry/upset/insert emotion here
Well, I understand that mother is separate from heaven. We were told “she is with us walking the earth.” Also she is looking for her lost children.
ASH described God differently. He said in his book to the effect that God is like a power plant, when you turn on a light, the power stays in the plant, but manifests in you home. So God never leaves heaven.
I remember many times Zhang saying how she “missed heaven”. From WMS teachings, she is not in two places at once. But what @kai stated doesnt surprise me either…many members seem to be told different things by lower members. But, as my wife and I recently saw in a dealing we just had with an ex deaconess, they do this on purpose.
I have learnt both teachings actually, all I can say is that this is just part of their internal inconsistency and contradictions, so no surprise there. And if we raise it up, they will start to stick to one teaching and state that the other is just a lie, misunderstanding, etc (like how it was for 2012, abortions, racism, etc)
Love'n Honey wrote:
Well.. When you mix the truth with what they're saying, technically YES, Zhang in heaven and on earth; she is in the spiritual and the physical body. HOWEVER.. That's not how the WMSCOG plays it out. In the Heavenly Play, it is shown and said very plainly that Zhang LEFT her thrown in heaven. They also explain this in various bible studies. If this is how it went, then she's no longer in heaven.
They play hard on semantics.. So, semantically speaking, you can't remain in a place that you've left. (Just like you can't go back to a place you've never been.. Ecc 12:7)
I couldn't stop laughing when I read this because it's just so typical about how the story twist and changes to fit whatever interpretation they want.
Well honestly the only complain I have against the wmscog now is of copyright infringement. If they want to start a business they should have just did what scientology did. The reason I say "only complain" is because there are tons of cults out there so by cult-standard the wmscog isn't THAT special.
Kai TIng wrote:
Well honestly the only complain I have against the wmscog now is of copyright infringement. If they want to start a business they should have just did what scientology did. The reason I say "only complain" is because there are tons of cults out there so by cult-standard the wmscog isn't THAT special.
Respectfully, but emphatically, I must say that since the Wms is the cult that has MY SON, it is in the "special" column for me. And for every other parent of a member. I agree with you that there are tons of cults out there, and I hope we can let people know some traits that are common to all so that they don't become entrapped. But this particular one is one of the most effective, damaging, and dangerous mind control cults that is presently afflicting the U.S. in my opinion. This is because they are very effective at recruiting and then manipulating their members, and they have refined this to an art of sorts. And their stealth approach and ways of hiding themselves have made it so they have grown like an undiagnosed cancer. If you don't know it's there and doing damage all the while, you can't rid yourself of it, can you. I don't have just one complaint against them. I have many.
I hope I don't offend you with this response, Kai, as I value your input here, always. I just think I am at a different place than you are in my circumstances. Sometimes the parents of members have a whole 'nother perspective than young people who were in.
MountainMom wrote:
Kai TIng wrote:
Well honestly the only complain I have against the wmscog now is of copyright infringement. If they want to start a business they should have just did what scientology did. The reason I say "only complain" is because there are tons of cults out there so by cult-standard the wmscog isn't THAT special.
Respectfully, but emphatically, I must say that since the Wms is the cult that has MY SON, it is in the "special" column for me. And for every other parent of a member. I agree with you that there are tons of cults out there, and I hope we can let people know some traits that are common to all so that they don't become entrapped. But this particular one is one of the most effective, damaging, and dangerous mind control cults that is presently afflicting the U.S. in my opinion. This is because they are very effective at recruiting and then manipulating their members, and they have refined this to an art of sorts. And their stealth approach and ways of hiding themselves have made it so they have grown like an undiagnosed cancer. If you don't know it's there and doing damage all the while, you can't rid yourself of it, can you. I don't have just one complaint against them. I have many.
I hope I don't offend you with this response, Kai, as I value your input here, always. I just think I am at a different place than you are in my circumstances. Sometimes the parents of members have a whole 'nother perspective than young people who were in.
I'm with you mountain mom. Today I went looking for them at a local mall with my camera to confront them about various things, but they were no where to be found. ๐
@brian My wife and I were talking about following them in the mall, and every person they preach to, tell them our experience. I also want to put warning notices up, warning the public.
UntouchableJ wrote:
@brian My wife and I were talking about following them in the mall, and every person they preach to, tell them our experience. I also want to put warning notices up, warning the public.
Thats good. I've been looking for them in public places with my camera to ask them very blunt questions like " are you telling people about zahng and ahn outright?" Just to reveal the disparity between their answers and what they're actually telling people. I'm also working on an exposure campaign with the we love you foundation. I've been looking for a public confrontation with them for a while, but i've not been able to find them….its kind of a weird silent hill sort of feeling.
@brian I totally understand. I would love to meet new members…maybe 4-6 months in. I would love to show them some of the pics from the NCPCOG especially the one with ASH eating a big meal, and ask them, “Do you see a skinny, Frail ASH here only eating a bowl of porridge in a shack?”
Yes I totally think that the experience is vastly different for each and every one of us, for ex-members and family of members, etc, and I want to show you my support in this tough times. Though sometimes I might be insensitive and tend to treat this forum more like a personal diary to voice my reflections (like the time when I talked about "forgiveness" and totally stirred up a fire >__<""…..) so anyways, I just wish for the best for everyone of us here! Let's continue spreading awareness and support each other =)
Kai TIng wrote:
Yes I totally think that the experience is vastly different for each and every one of us, for ex-members and family of members, etc, and I want to show you my support in this tough times. Though sometimes I might be insensitive and tend to treat this forum more like a personal diary to voice my reflections (like the time when I talked about "forgiveness" and totally stirred up a fire >__<""…..) so anyways, I just wish for the best for everyone of us here! Let's continue spreading awareness and support each other =)
I agree with you Kai Ting. And I want to support you and others as well. Thank you for these comments. I really feel that it isn't that you or any ex member is insensitive. I just think the full realization isn't there at first, and the variance in experiences plays a part.
As far as using this forum like a personal diary and reflecting, I think almost all of us do that, and it is perfectly OK. More than that, it helps people understand so much better. Please continue to do that.
UntouchableJ wrote:
@brian My wife and I were talking about following them in the mall, and every person they preach to, tell them our experience. I also want to put warning notices up, warning the public.
Warning people is the right direction. People who know what they are about will be very likely to do research on them, and that is what will save them from becoming a victim. Their stealth approach and deceptive practices are what make them a very dangerous group, in my opinion.
Brian Taylor wrote:
I'm with you mountain mom. Today I went looking for them at a local mall with my camera to confront them about various things, but they were no where to be found. ๐
Very interesting. What are the rules for doing that kind of thing, vis a vis publishing such interviews online? Do we have to blur faces? Just wondering about privacy issues regarding the proselytizers.
There are lots of people who have filmed encounters with mormon missionaries on you tube.I started another thread by posting a video where a guy recorded a conversation with two wms koreans. As far as I understand, filming in a public place is protected under the first amendment of the U.S. constitution.
UntouchableJ wrote:
@brian My wife and I were talking about following them in the mall, and every person they preach to, tell them our experience. I also want to put warning notices up, warning the public.
I heard a funny story called "Where's Joey?" A cult had someone's son as a member, and the family didn't know where he was. The cult wouldn't tell them, so Joey's grandfather and all his senior citizen friends started following the cult members around in the malls where they recruited. They all had those clicker things like we used to have for Halloween for noisemakers. Whenever the cult members tried to talk to someone they were recruiting, the whole group of senior citizens would gather around and start clicking the noisemakers and they would all keep asking "Where's Joey, where's Joey,where's Joey?" The group finally spit him out! Lol!
I don't advocate this for the Wms, but I think it was a very original and funny method of dealing with a cult. Just put this up for a laugh. At least I found it funny!
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