[Forget US Not]

New to this page, I felt compelled to address what I thnk might be received as an important address to parents, families, members of those in WMSCOG, and potentially anyone who desires education.  As someone without a loved one in this group, as someone who is not familiar with any thing really about this group… but learned about it in a recent article…I decided it might be in a good decision to jump right in and see if I could provide some insight to parents, those who are in the group, those who just desire to understand more., and whomever wishes to hear what I have to offer. Sometimes, when we are so close to a situation….we are unable to see the forest through the trees. First, you might have one big burning questions…who am I and why did I feel a compulsion to get "involved?"  The answer is simple, I am a parent of children who were targeted, indoctrinated and isolated from their enire family, all their friends, everyone.  They walked out of the shoes that was their life and it has been 925 days. No, they are not in WMSCOG…in fact, we are not really sure what group they are in or where they are. But…this article stirred my soul, some parents might feel like I do, feel that anguish, some followers might feel like my child…struggling and not knowing how to get out.  By all intents and purposes, my "loves" are missing (yet very much alive & present in "their world). I often wonder, do they have any idea of the angst we feel?  The way they just vanished from our lives and we are just expected to just …carry on?  No answers, no explanations…just a wonderful, loving relationship and then…. gone. That to me seems to be the biggest red flag in determining whether our loved ones are just exploring a religion, a self-help group or even a friendship. Choice.  When someone, anyone is told them must choose between their family and anything…there is a light flashing and a horn honking that says…"danger."

Growing up…I never told my children they couldn't have friends "choose between them and us!" or told them that if they didn't do exactly what we said at all times, we wouldn't love them.  We have always loved them without any conditions. Sometimes, parents need to provide tough love and try to get their child to make the proper choice about something when they feel they are taking a divergent path that could be dangerous, like drugs and in those time… it makes sense to be firm…to shock them into making the proper choice (ultimately, their life and well being). But..that was never OUR situation.  For many parents, for many people who have loved ones who have completely walked away… there were no warning signs.  After all, we trust wholeheartedly and love …unconditionally.  Right?  But choice, that is where people start to wander down a slipper slope.  Sometimes, they encounter that wolf in sheeps clothing.  They are met with friendship, conversation and the desire to fit in… find their niche.  I know, I was there….I'm still there…we are STILL there no matter how old we get.  It is great to fit in and feel the cammaradarie of friendship and a like mindedness among others.  The difference is… I would never make a choice between anything and those I love.  That to ME…is a deal breaker.  I learned very early on about the ramifications of choice and that stayed with me, made me think critically at all times but also it made me give great thought and deliberation as to the motives of others. For me, if I realized that someone wanted to change me, morph me into something they wanted me to be and to have me abandon those who were most important in my life…then THEY would be the ones to see my back as I walked out the door.  "Loyal as a St. Bernard, my dad would say…as I yelled at the shopkeeper at only 8 years old for being (what I felt) was rude to my mother.  My finger waving and my voice raising so that he received the message loud and clear."  We all laughed about that at the dinner table that night and I had no idea why it was so amusing. What did I do that was so..remarkable?  Now…many years later, I understand.  I wouldn't let my mother compromise her intergrity or her respect and just "take" being spoken to that way.  The lesson wasn't taught..it was felt.  I KNEW that my parents always advocated and protected me and I felt that love.  In turn… I gave it back in the way I understood.  

Regardless of any doctrine or belief structure…God (whatever God you believe in)…we are given the most spectacular gift of free will. If you haven't guessed it already, I am a storyteller (not by profession) but because I think our lives are comprised of fantastic stories and memories that exemplify where we are today.  They are building blocks to the present. So…think about, for a minute, when you were a child and you went into a toy store.  Do you remember that feeling of seeing absolutely all of those shiny, amazing toys staring right back at you?  I do.  Thing is…I couldn't start grabbing every toy off the shelf and start filling my cart with them, for several reasons: first, my mom or dad would say no, second,we didn't have the money to afford every toy and lastly, my parents had a job to make me understand the power of choice.  At that moment, I had a critical decision to make…which one of the thousands of toys to choose!  Point is, I am no longer a child, but that moment is something that should be ingrained in each of us…that lesson.  It still is in me. We must choose.  Now for a child…their thinking is compromised (their brain is not fully developed until age 26) and despite really wanting to make a decision among their top ten favorites…(in this instance) they had to discern and pick one specific toy. After much deliberation, I made my decision and ever since that moment, I used the power of discernement and ignited my critical thinking to make choices.  While choosing a toy sounds simplistic, and it is…there is more than one way to handle that situation.  A child could give a lot of thought and compare and contrast toys until they just decide on that one specific one (giving weight to why they liked THAT one, do they have others like it, how long they have been coveting this prize, etc…) The second thing they could do is have a tantrum…they want more than one toy and that's it! Mom and dad eventually drag them out of the store kicking and screaming or…the kid's tear soaked face makes a decision but is still miserable while they exit looking at the plethora of toys behind them.  And lastly, the child is faced with an ethical dilemna.  No matter how hard they try, they can pick one toy but they are very tossed up between which toy to choose because in reality…why DO they have to pick only one. The critically thinking child will look up at their parent and say….why must I choose only one?  If the dollar value is the benchmark to purchasing a present, why can't I get more than one present as long as it doesn't go over the amount you think is fair to spend?  Now that child was really thinking!  They were not arbitrarily chosing a toy just because they were given an opportunity at that moment.  They desired to know the parameters of their choice.  If there is a dollar amount….that certainly might restrict their choices therefore they must truly think about each of their choices and make a sound decision so that they…ultimately…will go home and be happy with the choice they made and the decision to leave other things behind.  

How I wish that my children, who never had a tantrum and were so thankful for everything they had…as well as the gift of family and two parents who adored them, thought so critically when someone was asking them to choose between their family and the group that has shown them the path to isolation, manipulation and fear.  Choose us… choose your life! To me…there life… is not living.  How can it be when they have discarded anyone who looks out for their well being, loves them from the moment they were born and loves them with no conditions whatsoever.  To me….they no longer have choice. They, instead…have learned to be judgemental, punitive and disrespectful in the eyes of God…and what should be …their own conscience.  I don't care what anyone says… no God… demands abandonment of ones family.  Never.  It is not about forced decisions…it is about truth.  REAL truth. To me…when one is given a decision like that…it is coercison, plain and simple.  I am not sure whether members of the WMSCOG are asked to make those same decisions…I hope not.  I am not sure whether their loved one chose a group over their family but if they did, I sure hope not.  I also have no idea why anyone, WSCOG, or any group would demand that their followers, their congregation their members would think that their doctirne, their way of thinking is superior to anything or anyone else?  I have been told that power corrupts absolutely.  If someone reigns in power and instructs others to think and act…that is another huge red flag.  Remember the toy store analogy?  That child…me…probably you…was given a choice.  We did not leave that store telling our parents that we wanted every toy and if they didn't furnish it we didn't love them and they were horrible people.  Simply, we accepted that we had a choice, we chose our behavior, we chose the toy.  Our parents loved us…regardless of how our actions were that day and regardless over the decision we made because that is what family does.  We are given simple choices…like toys. Then we are given more difficult choices …like drugs or alcohol. Then the bigger choices start developing …like conformity and acceptance.  Thing is… our parents, our friends, our relatives loved us despite our choices.  They stood by us and allowed us to use our free will. the freedom of our physical bodies and our intellect to guide our decision making.  We have all made poor choices…but when someone snatches that liberty from us and tells us what we must think, feel, believe…who we may love, hate, respect…we have given up the greatest choice of all…when to use our minds and free will.  We have then,  turned our back on freedom to use our minds and our actions to follow what we know our critical mind tells us….how our heart speaks to us…what our subconscious remember and records…all those "stories".  To allow others to think for us and to let others navigate our thoughts and fool us into thinking that WE are making choices when they really are the ones telling us those thoughts to begin with…well, we just reduced ourselves to nothing more than puppets.  Who is your puppetmaster?  If you do not have the freedom to chose whatever you wish to do, think or say…look to who was the one that TOLD you this to begin with…I think you might then find, a wolf in sheeps clothing.  In closing, the best part of choice is when we do something someone tells us is forbidden.  You know what I mean… every adult who was a kid…does.  Mom says "don't hang out with ……" and you do!  Nothing happens, Mom STILL loves you but eventually….you find out that mom (though you hate to admit it) was right. That friend was not a friend, that girl really was a heartbreaker, doing wheelies really does make you fall and get hurt…. families are there to shield you from the falls in life… the people in life who really are…those wolves.   Think about it.  Hope you found this useful. Wish my children could understand.

[David]

[David]

Welcome to the forum Forget us Not and thank you for thoroughly, LOL, introducing yourself.

I'm only half kidding there because I do like to get a feel for the motivation of new voices and I think others here will agree. I'm just glad it is a Saturday so I had time to read it. 🙂

Sorry to hear your child is stuck in a controling group of some kind, I'm sure all the parents here can relate to that!

[MountainMom]

I know I just said I was going to take time away from the forum, but I couldn't look away from your story.  It tells the story of virtually every mother here.  I hope you know what an awesome mother you are.  I can tell it so easily from what you have written.  I hope your children realize it, and I actually think they really do, if that is any consolation, and I hope so much that it is.  They really are not happy without you, and they will someday realize it.

[Forget US Not]

Thank you David and Mountain Mom, it is great to join a group of others who understand.  Ironic, a group needs to be formed of "like minded" individuals just to grapple with the loss we feel.  I much suspect that those who "gather" …anywhere…do so out of this innate desire we ALL have …to belong.  Thing is, like you David…or you Mountain Mom… we can drop by here…say a few words (or a lot)…and then leave.  No one is telling us to come back, to say something specific, to spout what we feel others should think or believe…etc… WE are in control.  Makes me think about the spectrum of influence of groups and something my child said to me when I mentioned a concern or two I had, those words linger and resonate in my mind daily…"mama, don't you know…there is nothing…nobody that could ever pull me away from you.  Please don't worry..I love you…your're my best friend, always have been, always will be."  That was a few months prior to disconnection.  Honestly, I could make peace with "estrangement"…that is easy…you have a fight and everyone pouts and goes their seperate way until apologies materialize but….alienation is different.  We are evil because someone told them to believe that.  Sounds SO preposterous…doesn't it???   If we tell them "you are being controlled"..of course they won't belive us becasue the group is SO adept at telling them "your parents will tell you we are controlling you but you want to be here, right?"  Well, of course they will agree…and so begins their connection to their "leader, guru, their wolf."  Reminds me of another group… the followers keep moving up and up a ladder. They believe in a "planet" and well… I can go on but really..it sounds like something out of Star Wars!  Thing is …they DO believe it.  To us..the outsiders… people can say, "how gullible are you?" However, it is not naivety…it is how their brains are slowly changed..altered to beleive the unbelievable.  The only way they can take charge of that is to say…"NO…no one is going to tell me what to think, say or do."  I will not believe that tragedy will befall my parents, that I will die, or people will perish in a fiery pit.  Challenge it… do something…make THEM work ot prove it rather than you work to believe.  Just a thought.  Well, signing off..because… I can! 

[Anonymous]

Forget Us Not … Are you saying you have no contact with your children in the cult? Do your children in the cult

communicate with any family members at all?

In our experience with WMSCOG we have maintained communication with our child although

as you might expect it can be quite contentious. We haven’t direct knowledge of an attempt by

the overseers to eliminate contact. However those who have spouses in WMSCOG have encountered

this. It sounds like your children are in the grip of a very restrictive cult if there is no communication at all.

That’s scary …

[Forget US Not]

Heinrich Hochhalter…thank you for your comment.  I do not have any contact with two children, but you are correct… they are not in WMSCOG.  I read the NJ article which caught my attention and wanted to know more about this group because of the practices I was reading about.  Curious why WMSCOG allows children to maintain contact with family, yet is more restrictive of couples.  My guess…though I know nothing about the church or its ideology (but I will get up to speed) is that they introduce young, impressionable and vulnerable young adults in and if their doctrine of belief sticks and the person becomes more enmeshed…then eventually there might be arranged marriages or many that occur in order to prepetuate their group think.  I wish I could say that this was something new but this is how many, many groups operate.  One can't really compare one group vs. another because there are nuances to each that make them "unique" but the tactics they use and the slow grooming that takes place over time is what solidifies their invovlement until they realize that somehwwwhere along the line…they "lost themselves" utterly and totally to the demands of the "group".  What I find interesting Heinrich is that religious groups, especially ones as large as WMSCOG seem to use much fear to "keep" their members.  To those on the outside, it is kind of a no brainer to  think "hey, how can y ou possibly believe that you are waiting for a spaceship, or that your group are the only chosen ones, or that the world is going to end, or that God or whomever they think is their creator is choosy when it comes to salvation.  I have to laugh when I hear this becasue…truthfully…all these people that we speak about, every member and every leader of every group, religion or congregation are mere mortals!  They can interpret whatever religious text they want and morph it into what they THINK others want to hear or preach something that is a total departure from the bible (as an example) but..that doesn't make one's faith!  The people…leaders are just human beings.  They have no more greater knowledge over what our creator or how things are born or die in this world…..than the next person.  It is so very sad becasue I think that if all of the people who are "raptured" by some group to the point that they allow it to ruin their relationships, create conflict and strife and more or less dictate every part of their life… they are relinquishing their mind, body and soul to something or someone who is just as human as them.  We know nothing of this world and no one else does either.  If any of these people cared about their creator..they would stop and think "would something so good, so pure and wonderful want me to treat others with disdain or live my life waiting for the end of time or think God was going to kill me for being a sinner? Wish they could hear that out loud and be able to think…critically.  As for my children, yes…whatever it is most certainly is destructive and has altered the trajectory of their lives in many ways, least of which is all of the relationships in their lives.  These groups are very adept at poisoning minds.  Back to WMSCOG for a moment…I think if parents still have connections to their children that they should be very careful about how they approach their "new found" interest in the church.  Without a doubt, they were probably approached by someone and frienship and love bombing brought them into the fold.  The thing these "groups" don't realize is that conventional churches don't do this.  People can go in to pray, worship…or not…of their own free will.  I can go to whatever house of worship of my choosing…priests, reverends, pastors and rabbi's don't walk the malls or stand on street corner inviting people to attend a service.  Nor do church leaders in any way tell you how you should be living your daily life.  Granted… every religion has some specific "criteria" that they frown upon of their members however…that TOO is left up to members to embrace or not.  In other words…they are not shown the door if they don't comply.  I wish that those who are entertaining this church do their due diligence. Read articles, talk to former members, have a conversation with their parents and people they trust and tell them about their new found interest.  Family and friends are much more objective about things then we are.  They have the ability to see things with much greater clarity.  If afer all of their research and information gathering they still like the group….then at least they are knowledgeable of what they are getting themselves into.  The problem is… who actually does this?  Who wants to actually hear the negative and then entertain it?  Covering up your ears and pretending that there is not a flip side to absolutely everything is dangerous.  In short,,,people owe it to themselves.  They should look in the mirror, look around the room at their homes, think about their friends, family and extended family and then think…. if I don't research something …am I willing to gamble "ALL" of this…for everything I have in my life.  For sure…destructive groups are about power, control, money and sex.  They don't advertise this and they don't come off as evil people…. they come off interesting, exciting, shiny and new.  That's the problem!  

[Anonymous]

Bump

[UntouchableJ]

Forget- They are always evolving and seem to learn from mistakes with members. You raised a good, and true statement. Fear is truly a tactic of this church, but on a multifaceted level. Fear of damnation/unkown , then fear of the Hierarchy/Leadership is the revolving process. They instill a fear of hell. Then, the many of the Pastors have a rudeness and arrogance and since questioning and talking back is worthy of being “Kicked out”, the second fear tactic takes hold.

[Forget US Not]

Thank you Untouchable J.  Wish that present members could know that the "fears" instilled in them are similar fears that are instilled by other leader…of other churches…or gurus of groups…or predators who threaten if the person "tells."  I will say this…I had contact with one child in the spring.  She actually spoke to a couple of her siblings and realized that nothing bad happened.  Then…in reading a couple of emails from one…one in which I specifically told her that nothing would happen to "us" should she speak to us…she finally picked up the phone!  She was not struck down, we didn't die, nothing at all happened and perhaps it was a momentary awarness on her part that the fear instilled in her was unjustifiable.  Thing is… her "connection" to us was temporary as we suspect the 'group" found out and used punishment to shut her up.  Slowly…she retreated even more than before…first, no social media, then…disconenction of her phone #, then the response from my email of "no contact".  

Fear is very real and I wish for my loved ones…and others (should they be reading this, I don't know) a reallly old adage.  "There is nothing to fear but fear itself."  These religious leaders, group leaders, gurus are…they ARE human!  They have skin, bones, blood, veins…and are mortal…just like the rest of us.. BUT…they have been so exalted…so reverred…that they are considered holy or sacred.  Thing is…they are not!  No person should be instilling fear in another of damnation, hell or doom and gloom befalling them or their loved ones.  I wish…if I had one wish..it would be… for those who are living this way…to actually take one of those fears and reality test it.  "If you call your mother you will die."  Okay…eventually we ALL call our mothers and eventually we all die.  BUT…to be struck dead upon picking up the phone…its not going to happen.  If someone has to live in that much fear…then they are truly kidnapped…mind, body and soul.  Thank you Untouchable J.  One last thing…they have a fear of being "kicked out"…kicked out of what!  Does it mean THAT much to you to belong to something..someone who threatens you and actually drives a wedge between you and people who you loved and who loved you?  Think about it!  I would WANT to get kicked out because the fear of "anything" being held over my head would make me anything BUT holy, free and pure in the eyes of God.  It would make me a sheep…a sheep waiting for the slaughter.  i wish they could see their leaders for what they are.  The word "leader" says it all.  They are not leading they are making people…folllow….there IS a difference.

[UntouchableJ]

@Forget…You said your kids arent in WMS? I didnt know other groups functioned like thet did. I speculate she was found out, or told then what she had done. “False guilt” is another tactic of control groups. “Brothers and Sisters we will know if you do, _____”. So the member tells on themself.

[Azula]

Bump Again