- Topic
I am bringing forward some information I've found from other people's research. I want to thank Genny for having some great information available on her website.
The WMSCOG seems to enjoy a deep tradition of stealing studies from other cults. It's too bad that they didn't do their own work or at least research the information to see if it is truthful or factual.
In their Evidence Book, page 175, it says that the remaining seven kingdoms accepted Catholicism and swore allegiance to the Pope. On page 158 we read that the Papacy was established in 538 A.D. just after the three kingdoms had been destroyed. One of the kingdoms that people are told was uprooted by the little horn was the Ostrogoths. According to the WMSCOG teachings the Ostrogoths were destroyed the same year the Papacy was created 538 A.D. According to history the Ostrogoths were not destroyed in 538. OOPS! The Ostrogoths put up a fierce fight and was not truly defeated until 553 A.D. That's a pretty big span of time. Not exactly a typo in the information. Fifteen years is the difference here! With this it creates a situation where the Roman Catholic Church doesn't fit the description of the Beast. The WMSCOG among others spend a great deal of time proving (MISLEADING) to their members that the RCC is the Beast and the Antichrist.
As far as the other kingdoms accepting Catholicism goes: Several kingdoms did not convert to Christianity until the 7th century. Now that is a several hundred year mistake in their teaching. What's more, several of the kingdoms that did convert were conquered by the church. That's something the WMSCOG wont tell you!
Here's another interesting fact for everyone: The WMSCOG teaches that there were no "Saints" during the "Dark Ages". How is it that they also teach that during this time there was the "slaughtering of numerous saints"?
How many invented facts are in the Evidence Book? Why would any rational person continue to follow a group that is willing to lie in order to get you to follow them? 2013 should be a huge wakeup call! Has the preaching stopped as they said it would? Did the world come to an end? Did Christ come? NO, NO, and NO! Come on out of there folks. The truth is not in them! I'll bet they are preparing for the next Passover even though Mother said last year was the last one! The deception is real, come out of there, find the truth and work out your own salvation. They are NOT the way, the truth, or the light.
I just want to know which studies have they take from other cults??
Thanks Joshua. Yeah, the Pope-is-Antichrist was taken from the 7th Day Adventists (as far as I know, unless they got it from someone else previously).
Simon said in another thread somewhere that the wmscog has a different definition for "saints" to make it fit that the "saints" were oppressed during the "dark ages." It doesn't make sense, but of course they will try. Simon, can you please remind me what they say about the saints?
Here's what I remember. They said that after Passover "disappeared" from the earth, there was no way to be saved. So for centuries, NO ONE WAS SAVED, until the Passover was "restored." If no one is saved, then there cannot be any saints, because the definition of "saint" is "holy one, set apart, holy, sacred, believer."
Here's the Greek word for saint: http://biblesuite.com/greek/40.htm
and the Hebrew word: http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/6922.htm
Even though the Passover was abolished doesn't mean no one kept it. The COG teaches that even after the Sabbath was abolished there were those that went into the mountains and underground in order to keep the Sabbath. It is the same with the Passover. It being abolished means that as a church they did not keep the Passover. "there is no one who can receive salvation" they never set a date from which no one started to receive salvation. The time when the last few' people' or 'saints' that kept the Passover were completely gone, is not stated, but as a whole as a church, there was no one who was saved. That is the teaching. But you have to know that just because you heard something from one of the members or even a missionary doesn't mean his word is exact. It's like when a message is passed down the line by word of mouth. It starts, "he went home at 6pm" then as it keeps getting passed on it soon becomes "he went home around 6pm" and then when it gets to the very end it could change to "he went home after 6pm". See it might be a subtle change but its meaning is greatly different. But that's the problem you can't make everyone say the samething, some one will say it a little differently, it's impossible to control that. That's one reason why they make everyone study so hard because one change in the wording or understanding and then everything changes. Then soon you have members spreading something you never taught. But it happens.
Alright, but think about what the wmscog teaches (documented, not just hearsay from a member).
- They teach that you MUST take Passover to be saved (well, among other requirements, but Passover seems to be the first and foremost MUST).
- They teach that the Passover disappeared from the world in the year 325 (yes, they state that on their website).
- Their date for starting the "dark ages" is 538 (or 325, depending on which page/book you read).
- They teach that the 1260 days (years) prophesied that the Antichrist would be in power (and "oppress the saints") was from the years 538 to 1798.
- They teach that the Passover had to be 'restored' because it had disappeared, and that Ahn was the one who restored it (1948 or 1964 doesn't really matter right now for this purpose).
Therefore (please bear with me),
- The Passover would not need to be restored unless it was gone.
- If there were still people keeping it (no matter how few), then it would not be gone.
- If the Passover were not gone, there would be no need for Ahn to 'restore' it.
- Ahn's 'restoring' the Passover means that it must have been gone from the world.
- If it was gone, then no one was saved–there were no saints.
- If it was gone between the years 538-1798, then there were no saints to be persecuted.
- If Passover was available after 538, then why does the wmscog teach that it disappeared from the world in 325?
- In order for saints to be oppressed until 1798, the Passover must have been available somewhere until 1798. That's an even bigger difference in time from 325.
re·store
Verb
1Bring back; reinstate.
2 Return to a former condition, place, or position.
I understood it as definition 2
I am very curious to know what exactly is the wmscog interpretation of the passover. My understanding is that the OT teaching of passover was the sacrifice of the unblemished lamp with its blood being spinkled on the door post. With the wmscog, I believe the passover means partaking of the bread and wine.
As I understand from what HAL has written, the lamb sacrifice seemd to have gone around 70AD with the destruction of the temple. As regards, the bread and wine, this practice has gone uninterrupted since the early church. The Catholic church calls it the eucharistic celebration and believes it is the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine. Many Protestant denominations too have communion. So what exactly is it that ASH restored?
Jesus is the Passover lamb
Some of my research showed that the 3 little horns that the wmscog claimed (Ostrogoths, Vandals and Heruli) were not directly destroyed by the Papacy. Though the Papacy do somehow fit the description of the little horn, other historians claim that the Papacy was not the one to cause the destruction of these three tribes.
Some historical evidence showed that the Heruli was destroyed by the Lombards around 508. WMSCOG claims that it was destroyed in 493 AD. Here is also one site that claims differently from the statements of SDA and wmscog (with reliable references included), "http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/3horns.html
(Daniel 7:8: Behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots) There is still many theories regarding what these three horns represents. Others say that these were probably, the exarchate of Ravenna, the kingdom of the Lombards and the state of Rome. SO because of these different opinion, we still cannot be sure of what the three horns represents. The SDA (not sure if they are a cult) and the wmscog are just claiming that these three tribes are three horns because they can't find anything to fit with the Papacy.
emil wrote:
I am very curious to know what exactly is the wmscog interpretation of the passover. My understanding is that the OT teaching of passover was the sacrifice of the unblemished lamp with its blood being spinkled on the door post. With the wmscog, I believe the passover means partaking of the bread and wine.
As I understand from what HAL has written, the lamb sacrifice seemd to have gone around 70AD with the destruction of the temple. As regards, the bread and wine, this practice has gone uninterrupted since the early church. The Catholic church calls it the eucharistic celebration and believes it is the real presence of Christ in the bread and wine. Many Protestant denominations too have communion. So what exactly is it that ASH restored?
Ash restored the name "Passover". Take note, the NAME only. lol. Since people have been celebrating the partaking of bread and wine long before WMSCOG was established. But as I remember, the WMSCOg claims that it is not a valid one because other religions are practicing it in the wrong way and their way is the only right and valid one as they are doing it on the right time, with the right kind of bread and the right giving of wine. lol.
and the date most churches keep it monthly weekly or quarterly etc.
Simon wrote:
re·store
Verb
1Bring back; reinstate.
2 Return to a former condition, place, or position.
I understood it as definition 2
Since they talk about Passover "disappearing" I understood it as definition 1. If definition 2, then anyone keeping the Passover must have not been doing it right, therefore the need for it to be restored, and if it wasn't done right then they would not be saved, and still the problem remains that there were no saints.
Elievalkyrie wrote:
Some of my research showed that the 3 little horns that the wmscog claimed (Ostrogoths, Vandals and Heruli) were not directly destroyed by the Papacy. Though the Papacy do somehow fit the description of the little horn, other historians claim that the Papacy was not the one to cause the destruction of these three tribes.
Some historical evidence showed that the Heruli was destroyed by the Lombards around 508. WMSCOG claims that it was destroyed in 493 AD. Here is also one site that claims differently from the statements of SDA and wmscog (with reliable references included), "http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/3horns.html
(Daniel 7:8: Behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots) There is still many theories regarding what these three horns represents. Others say that these were probably, the exarchate of Ravenna, the kingdom of the Lombards and the state of Rome. SO because of these different opinion, we still cannot be sure of what the three horns represents. The SDA (not sure if they are a cult) and the wmscog are just claiming that these three tribes are three horns because they can't find anything to fit with the Papacy.
That was a useful link, thanks!
Your last line… "the wmscog are just claiming that these three tribes are three horns because they can't find anything to fit with the Papacy." Exactly! The historical facts don't fit, so they have to twist it and leave out a lot of information in order to support their claim. And how many people are going to go fact check them on this kind of thing when they sound like they've done the historical research?
except ultimately you are over simplifying the doctrine.
and as far as dissapearing that is more hyperbole. It dissapeared from Church doctrines not personal ones nessesarily, and that is historical fact the Churches established by John (the ones in Asia) DID keep Passover those established by Paul and Peter did not restrict Bread and Wine as such. (or atleast by the fourth century that was the two sides contentions)
If I can find my green book I can site what ASH said but right now everything is such a mess for me I have not a clue where it is.
Simon wrote:
and as far as dissapearing that is more hyperbole. It dissapeared from Church doctrines not personal ones nessesarily, and that is historical fact the Churches established by John (the ones in Asia) DID keep Passover those established by Paul and Peter did not restrict Bread and Wine as such. (or atleast by the fourth century that was the two sides contentions)
It wasn't just a few scattered people here and there who kept the Passover. Check out this link:
http://www.ccg.org/english/S/P170.html
It's from a different Church of God (that has problems of it's own) and the article is about Sabbath keeping, but if you scroll most of the way down you'll find a chart where they document Churches of God through the centuries. The ones labeled quarto-deciman would be the Passover-keepers.
Although small compared to the Catholic church, these groups were significant enough. I remember reading about them in Foxes Book of Martyrs.
Simon wrote:
If I can find my green book I can site what ASH said but right now everything is such a mess for me I have not a clue where it is.
I can look it up. I'll get back to you when I find something.
Pope Viktor I wanted to excommunicate quartodeciman until bishos such as Irenaeus rebuked him. And the Council of Nicea delared quartodecimanism heterodoxy. So ultimately it in some ways was abolished seeing as heterodoxy until somewhat recently (considering a 16 century time span) was a dangerous place to be.
Well said, Joshua! Their lies are catching up and I pray more will see that Wmscog has no truth in them. When they say “Good morning,” you might want to check the time because it might be nighttime -nothing appear to be what they claim or teach. So sad.
Ok, Simon. I've been looking through the green book (The Mystery of God…). Here's what Ahn wrote concerning this topic:
Chapter 4
Likewise, the Holy Spirit that Jesus poured out on the apostles was withdrawn, because the church became corrupt and worshipped the sun god. Until now, a thin streak of light has remained for the gospel work of Christ….
Likewise, Jesus entered the Most Holy Place in heaven for the second time on October 22, the tenth day of the seventh month in the sacred calendar, 1844, through which the door to the truth was opened and the religious reformers began to appear….
Some people think that once Jesus entered the Most Holy Place, He always stays there until He comes again. This is not true. In the earthly sanctuary there is a high priest, and his mission is to mediate between God and His people; if there are no people, he cannot mediate. Likewise, Jesus cannot but stop mediating in the heavenly sanctuary if there are no people of His own on the earth. Actually, according to this prophecy, "the place of his sanctuary was brought low" (Dan. 8:9-11), the Church of God was destroyed by the little horn. Since the heavenly sanctuary was destroyed by the power of the little horn described in Dan. 8:9, the mediating work of Jesus the High Priest was discontinued during the 2,300-day prophetic period in Dan. 8:13-14. Therefore, though Jesus entered the Most Holy Place in heaven on the Day of Pentecost, He had to stop His mediating work because of the destruction of the church. In due time, however, Jesus began His mediating work again in the Most Holy Place.
So, disregarding right now whether Passover really disappeared or not, Ahn believed that there was a long time when there were "no people of His (Jesus') own on the earth."
But then a question arises, when was this 2,300-day prophetic period? Ahn believed in the 1 day=1 year interpretation, but it has not been 2300 years since Jesus was born, much less since the "Church of God was destroyed." Counting it as literal days makes it less than 7 years, which would mean that Jesus only left the Most Holy Place around 1837, if He re-entered in 1844, so that doesn't make sense. Unless Ahn considered the number 2300 symbolic for the 1260 days of the other prophecy.
He also seems conflicted on when that "thin streak of light" emerged. Was it 1844 when "the religious reformers began to appear" (above) or 1798 when "the Protestant Church began to preach" (below)?
The diagram labeled "The Creation in Six Days is a Prophecy of the Creation in Six Thousand Years" says this:
The saints were persecuted for 1,260 years [starting in 538].
The prophetic time period of the sixth day is the time from 1798 when the Protestant Church began to preach…
And didn't the Protestant Church begin to preach much earlier, in the early 1500s?
And the same chart shows three angels:
The first angel 1798 –> The second angel 1844 –> The third angel 1948 –>
These angels don't seem to match up with the angels releasing the trumpet judgments or the bowl judgments in Revelation.
Are these supposed to be 3 of the 4 angels holding back the winds of World War III? And now there is only one angel left to hold back the winds? He must have a tough job. But no, Ahn writes in chapter 33 that the 4 angels have been holding back the winds since WWII. So what are these three angels then?
But anyway… back to Passover. Ahn says (chapter 1),
The mystery is the gospel of the new covenant which was announced to the apostles and the prophets of the Early Church. After the Apostolic Age, this new covenant was trampled by Satan during the Dark Ages and has been sealed up until today…
…what the seven thunders said must be a certain part of the law. Among the law, it is only the seven feasts in three times that have been sealed until now….
God sealed up what the seven thunders spoke in order to give it to His people so that they could be redeemed in the event of an emergency in the last days….
The Bible prophesies that the unsealing of what the seven thunders said will occur within one generation in the last days. So it cannot occur in the churches that were built 100 or 200 years ago.
Sorry, I had to throw in the one about "in the event of an emergency." It cracks me up. 🙂
So Ahn believed that the celebration of the seven feasts (Passover included) had been sealed (unavailable?). Another indication that he believed there was no salvation available, and therefore there could be no saints.
And the wmscog only has 'one generation' frrom 1948 to prove their point, otherwise Ahn himself would have declared them false. It's been about 65 years so far. Did we ever figure out how many years were considered one generation? I really don't want my sister to wait another 35 years to hit the 100 year mark to prove this group false.
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