"is it not a little presumptuous"

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  • #7095
    Moved-Comment
    Participant

    This comment was originally posted on "The WMSCOG's Failed Predictions of 1988, 1999, and 2012.  What Will They Predict Next?" on 11/28/12 in reply to Jeff.

    Really?? says:

    What truth ??? I guess anyone can write anything on the internet about anybody and everyone believes.

    1)  Does everyone know that this website is being paid to slander the WMSCOG?  

    sound like they like money ๐Ÿ™‚

    2)  Guess who paying this website ? I hope is not another church ? oh my no    way!!! , I thought they would do this because they love God

    3)  And really please think about Jesus clearly talk about the end many times ?

        And even Paul talked about the end ? the whole bible talks about it ?

    4)  is it not a little presumptuous to use a Facebook snap shot that says 2012  and write a  whole page about it ?LOL

    But really God told us that he can come anything time ,2000000,3000000 and now. It is in Matthew 24 if your wondering. Did he not say "be ready" ? Why are you going against the teaching of Christ ?  If The WMScog says "we should be ready " this site says" look their talking about the End" lol

    Titus 1:15 – "To the pure, all thing a pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe , nothing is pure . They  claim to know God ,but by their actions they deny him " 

    Watch this site say anyone can use that verse? ๐Ÿ™‚ But anyway Christ said "be ready" so it can never be wrong to say that ๐Ÿ™‚

  • #51787

    genny
    Participant

    So are you saying that when you posted about God lying in the other thread (where it hadn't been mentioned and was out of the flow of conversation), you were not meaning to address the point here?  If that's so, then it would be helpful if you use the 'quote' feature so it's clear what you are responding to, particularly if you are responding to the post other than the last one.

    Where did I get the notion the WMSCOG teaches that God lies?  You just told me so.  Did I misunderstand you?  Did you mean to say that God does not lie?

    You said, "God sent a spirit to lie then let me ask is this spirit sinning?  and aren't all spirits from God?"

    Is Satan also a spirit?  Does Satan sin?  Is he from God?  What does God allow Satan to do (think of Job)? 

    We could get into some interesting spiritual questions, but the issue is, if the WMSCOG teaches that God lies, people ought to know.

    #51788

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    yea make more lies Genny, I said that's your interpretation you concieve it as a lie.  But God is above your standards.  Also that spirit is not satan and satan will be punished for all his evils.  Does not God decieve? but if you did it would be a sin, yet if God does it is not cuz he is God his ways are not evil.

    #51789

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    To reply to #3 Was God upset that isaac told them she was his sister? God has no problems with it, then why should you? God is the Judge of what counts for a lie not you, again your standards are not Gods. 

    #51790

    genny
    Participant

    Lie… "an intentional untruth, a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive"

    A misunderstanding is different than a lie.  If I misunderstand you, then explain again, don't accuse me of lying.

    Genesis 26:7 "When the men of that place asked him about his wife, he said, “She is my sister,” because he was afraid to say, “She is my wife.” He thought, “The men of this place might kill me on account of Rebekah, because she is beautiful.”"

    So are you saying that Isaac did not lie?  That I only perceive it as a lie, but it's not really?  I disagree.

    But let me try rephrasing and you can tell me if I understand your response to #3 yet — It doesn't matter if God lies because if God lied it wouldn't really be a lie because it's God doing it.

    I find it interesting that your response focuses on whether or not God lies, instead of whether or not Isaac was God.

    #51791

    Elievalkyrie
    Participant

    Reading your discussions here got me exasperated.

    FTOS' view is that no matter what Jesus did, even if He didn't follow human laws, He is still sinless because He is, in FTOS' opinion, above the law. If this is the case, how does the people know what is true good and true bad? If it is good that is because God sees it as good and said it is good so it can never be considered bad. IF Jesus, living as a man, saw it fit to not obey all the laws, that means that it is okay for men to not obey also because everything Jesus do is good as God and people are just trying to follow His examples.

    Let's apply this in everyday life so we can understand it a little bit better.

    A parent role is to guide children into knowing what is good and what is bad. If a father says to his child, "Smoking is bad" but then later on a child sees his father smoking, the child will reach two conclusions in his mind. (This is the situation IF we accept that Jesus really did not keep all the laws).

    Conclusion 1. Father said smoking is bad, but he is doing it, that means father is bad!

    Conclusion 2. Father said smoking is bad, but I don't believe father is bad, that means smoking is good!

    So let's apply this to God and our situation. Ofcourse we cannot accept #1. Do all agree? We also cannot accept #2 because this implies that God (as the father in the story) is capable of lying. He told the child smoking is bad, but it really isn't since He is doing it.

    Since we cannot accept the two conclusions, that means there is something wrong with the given situation. We MUST maintain that Jesus DID follow all the human laws. So that we can reach the conclusion that Jesus is good and can never do wrong.

    Now I realize, FTOS have a different conclusion made so that he does not have to change the situation. This conclusion defies logic and that is:

    Conclusion 3. Father said smoking is bad. I can't smoke but he can. If he does not smoke, it is good. If he smokes, it is still good. As long as he is the only one doing it.

    Am I right with this, FTOS? If this is what the wmscog teaches their members, then I can now understand why many of them still remain with the church even when they find evidences that Ahnsanghong and Zhang committed adultery.

    #51792

    Simon
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    To reply to #3 Was God upset that isaac told them she was his sister? God has no problems with it, then why should you? God is the Judge of what counts for a lie not you, again your standards are not Gods. 

    whether God is upset or not whether it is moral or not whether it is okay or not doesn't change that it is a lie.

    #51793

    genny
    Participant

    I've been thinking more about this and trying to think of parallel situations too.  Here are some more to think about…

    Justice is part of God's character.  Sometimes God does things we perceive as unjust.  Does that mean God is unjust?  No, but it does mean that as an all-knowing God, if we knew what He knows about the situation, we would understand why His actions really were just.  So we cannot call God unjust simply because we perceive His action to be unjust.

    Love is part of God's character.  Sometimes God does things we perceive as unloving.  Does that mean God is unloving?  No, but again it does mean that if we knew what He knows about the situation, we would understand why His actions really were loving.  So again, we cannot call God unloving simply because we perceive His action to be unloving.

    Is it the same with lying?  Let's check…

    Truth is part of God's character.  We cannot call God a liar.  In the case of Isaac, did we perceive him to be lying, but if we knew what God knows, would we understand that he was really telling the truth?  Isaac said Rebekah was his sister when she wasn't–she was his wife.  Is there anything we might not know that would turn this apparent lie into the truth?  No, it is a fact that she was his wife, not his sister.  So in this case, either God is a liar or Isaac isn't God.

    Does that make sense?

    #51794

    Elievalkyrie
    Participant

    I am missing something here. Who said Isaac is God???

    #51795

    genny
    Participant

    Ahnsahnghong did.  I'll get the quote for you.  Just a minute…

    #51796

    genny
    Participant

    Here.  I'm pasting this from one of my blog articles:

    Noticed what he said on page 171 (Chapter 12), regarding Genesis 18:14, in which the Lord appeared to Abraham:

     

    Then Abraham made some bread and took a tender calf, and he brought some curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set them before God, who ate and said: "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son" (Gen. 18:10).  By these words God meant that He would be born as Isaac.  [emphasis mine]

    And then on page 185 (Chapter 12), regarding Genesis 18:1-10, Galatians 3:16, and John 8:56, he says:

    The above passages show that Abraham, who firmly believed in God's promise that He would return to him at the appointed time and be born as his [Abraham's] son through the body of Sarah, rejoiced at the thought of seeing the birth of Isaac, and he saw it and was glad.  [emphasis mine]

    #51797

    Elievalkyrie
    Participant

    [removed for rules]. Sorry but that is all I could say to that. Can I repeat that? [removed for rules]

    #51798

    genny
    Participant

    I should have mentioned, the quotes are from the green book, The Mystery of God and the Spring of the Water of Life.

    #51799

    KC
    Participant

    if zhang is mama god walking the planet she wont need lawyers, internet counter attack teams or translator.

    she would just need to flick her finger to smite us and specially me, the non believer.

    and this is the best simplest argument yet the most clear ways you are dealing with a fraud "tithes is the way how god would judge the level of your devotion" so basically if you cant pay, you are doomed…… am i right?

    yes i know some might say i didnt "pay" in money, sure….. but did you or did you not work for wmscog? as in doing the recruiting and such?

    if you can say "i didnt pay much in cash and i only attend the sabbath and in sion one day in a week" then maybe i will reconsider.

    #51800

    Simon
    Participant

    I went periods of very minimal tithing and only attending service very little preaching and never bore fruit. While I was never thrown out or anything close since I left thanks to being shown about the 8th month feast when I missed the first Sabbath I missed they didn't call text or stop by third day? nothing.. second sabbath nothing… third nothing.. fourth nothing….. almost a year now… two people have stopped by work and ran into one at walmat and one at the grocery store.

    #51801

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    So what Isaac said sarah is his sister, God is the Judge and if it justified in God's eyes it's nothing, maybe to you guys its  something to pick at, but in God's eyes its probably justified, I won't say yes cuz I'm not God and I don't pretend to know every thought of God, but Isaac was in a life or death situation, so he said sarah is his sister, hey spiritual we are brothers and sisters so what, did he do it to hurt someone, no, did he do it to any arguably immoral intent, no, did God get upset with him, I can't see that in the bible, actually he was blessed with so much more, so we can probably say God saw it as just. So if God has no problem with it we shouldn't be picking at it either.

    #51802

    genny
    Participant

    Just checking, fromtheotherside… Do you believe that Isaac was God?

    #51803

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    let me ask you is there any proof that he wasn't? Also why would it be hard for you to accept that? Is it because you don't want to?? What I want to say is, why not have an open mind and ask yourself why couldn't he be. God comes in many forms and Jesus wasn't the first time he came in the flesh to this earth, even showing himself to Abraham and ate food and water and washed his feet.  Also does this go against anything you believe?? saying this is possible or true does it make Jesus any less your saviour?? I think that all of you don't have any mind to really try to see truth in my arguments, but on the contrary, the first thing that comes to you mind is how can I prove him wrong.  Am I incorrect in my conclusions about you guys?? this isn't meant to be personal so don't take it the wrong way.

    #51804

    genny
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    let me ask you is there any proof that he wasn't? Also why would it be hard for you to accept that? Is it because you don't want to?? What I want to say is, why not have an open mind and ask yourself why couldn't he be. God comes in many forms and Jesus wasn't the first time he came in the flesh to this earth, even showing himself to Abraham and ate food and water and washed his feet.  Also does this go against anything you believe?? saying this is possible or true does it make Jesus any less your saviour?? I think that all of you don't have any mind to really try to see truth in my arguments, but on the contrary, the first thing that comes to you mind is how can I prove him wrong.  Am I incorrect in my conclusions about you guys?? this isn't meant to be personal so don't take it the wrong way.

    I'll take that as a yes.

    #51805

    Joshua
    Participant

    fromtheotherside wrote:

    So what Isaac said sarah is his sister, God is the Judge and if it justified in God's eyes it's nothing, maybe to you guys its  something to pick at, but in God's eyes its probably justified, I won't say yes cuz I'm not God and I don't pretend to know every thought of God, but Isaac was in a life or death situation, so he said sarah is his sister, hey spiritual we are brothers and sisters so what, did he do it to hurt someone, no, did he do it to any arguably immoral intent, no, did God get upset with him, I can't see that in the bible, actually he was blessed with so much more, so we can probably say God saw it as just. So if God has no problem with it we shouldn't be picking at it either.

     I just want to help here so no one gets really confused. It wasn't Sarah that Issac said was his sister, it was his wife Rebecca. Sarah was his mother not his wife.

    #51806

    fromtheotherside
    Participant

    Also I do agree to things that sound reasonable to me, and I've gone over your arguments many many times in my head, when i first studied here at COG, and even my mother took me to a protestent pastor and he showed me many of the exact same things you guys are telling me and much more to convince me to not attend cog, and at the time I did almost believe him but I went home and compared what iwas taught by WMSCOG and that pastor and came to a conclusion of what makes real sense through the words of the bible and this from a standpoint of some one in the middle I wasn't really a member of WMSCOG or even had any emotional attachment to them, and i wasn't a real kungho christian at that time either, so my conclusions are drawn from a view point of someone in the middle wieghing both sides.  So I ask you to do the same. maybe we might get somewhere. 

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